Chapman’s death.

[John G]

Hi again, John

I am not a Lechmere as Ripper advocate, but Fisherman has raised a number of questions about his behaviour which is troubling, though may simply be a reaction to the circumstances he found himself in that night. But I am not convinced a 5.30ish TOD destroys the case against him since:
a) he may not have been working that day for some reason - I don't think anyone checked;
b) or he may have been able to slip away from work unnoticed for a while;
c) or he may have changed his shift times for that day for some reason.
I don't know any of the above are true, but all are possibilities.

Hi,

Yes, I totally agree, which is why I just don't understand why a Lechmere advocate would promote the argument that Richardson lied, i.e. because by far the most plausible reason for this is that he was the killer.

On the other hand, a 5:30 time of death in no way seriously undermines Lechmere as a suspect. As you've noted, there could be numerous reasons why he wasn't at work at that time: he could have taken the day off sick; he could have switched shift patterns with a fellow worker; he might not have worked a regular shift pattern; he could have arrived late for work and then given an excuse. I mean, it's hardly likely is employer is going to say, "we suspect the real reason that you're late for work is that you were busy murdering Annie Chapman!"

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m nowhere near convinced that Richardson deliberately withheld the fact that he sat on the steps from Chandler. I still feel that he might just have said something like - I went to check the cellar doors and I can tell you for certain that there was no body there.

What reason would Chandler have had to pursue the matter for more detail. Especially during a conversation in the passageway at the beginning of an investigation with Doctor arriving at around the same time?

Equally couldn't he just as easily have mistaken or misheard - I sat on the steps, for - I stood on the steps?

As you’ve both said why would he lie? I’ve suggested previously that he might not have wanted to have placed himself in that yard with a knife? But he could have easily left out the knife part and said that he’d sat on the step and smoked a pipe. There’s just no reason for him to have lied. An innocent explanation is easily the likeliest.

[etenguy]

I’m nowhere near convinced that Richardson deliberately withheld the fact that he sat on the steps from Chandler. I still feel that he might just have said something like - I went to check the cellar doors and I can tell you for certain that there was no body there.

What reason would Chandler have had to pursue the matter for more detail. Especially during a conversation in the passageway at the beginning of an investigation with Doctor arriving at around the same time?

Equally couldn't he just as easily have mistaken or misheard - I sat on the steps, for - I stood on the steps?

As you’ve both said why would he lie? I’ve suggested previously that he might not have wanted to have placed himself in that yard with a knife? But he could have easily left out the knife part and said that he’d sat on the step and smoked a pipe. There’s just no reason for him to have lied. An innocent explanation is easily the likeliest.

That's possible Herlock - not too far away from what I think, I don't necessarily believe he deliberately lied, just a poor communicator based on his answers at the inquest.

[FISHY1118]

Cadosch is even stronger. He said that he heard no from number 29 but was cautious.

Please retract this false statement , its misleading

[FISHY1118]

Embarrassing.

You need to stop typing and start reading.

Forensic expert after Forensic expert. The most respected authorities on the subject. Not ripperologists but published experts. And there’s not a single one Fishy....not one....that supports Phillips. Every single one says that he could not have made an accurate TOD estimation. This is black and white. It’s a non-argument perpetuated by the dishonest. Phillips can be dismissed. He wasn’t a magician. He didn’t have magic hands. He could not have accurately estimate Chapman’s TOD. Why are you desperately continuing this? Are you a Forensic expert? Is Trevor? Is Fish? No but every single one of the people that I’ve quoted is.

Phillips is finished. Anyone that says otherwise is simply allowing bias to lead them into embarrassing positions.


What is embarrassing Herlock is you my friend you . You definitely need to pay more attention when responding to someones post . You have totally ignored what i posted, instead you chose to again waffle waffle waffle about forensic experts blah blah blah . Its been done to death by you over and over , but like always you just refuse to except what is right there in front of you, and that is Long Codosch and Richardson cannot and should not be accepted as proof the time of Chapman death was 5.30am. For god sake man give up , Wolf, Trevor and myself have explain it to you , start listening.

[JeffHamm]

...

And on that basis I suggest TOD cannot be conclusively be proven, but I do accept that everyone is entitled to their own opinions its how those opinions are formed

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And so you are in agreement with everyone else in that nobody is saying the ToD is 100% determined. Rather, people have been looking at the totality of the evidence that we have available and from that stating what their opinions are concerning the most likely ToD. Look, if you're going to roll the dice, and I say the most likely roll will total 7, that doesn't mean I'm positive you'll get a 7, it just means compared to any other total (6 for example), 7 is the most likely. People are acknowledging the concerns that go with eye witness statements, and have noted and considered the variation in statements given. They just seem to be willing to say that, on the basis of what we do know, and what witnesses testified to, the most likely ToD is around 5:30. I don't think anyone is saying it was definitely at 5:30. But to argue for a different time requires throwing out the witness statements, and even you agree that Phillip's estimate is to be ignored, and therefor to pick any other time is to do so with absolutely nothing in the way of evidence - and surely you must agree that would be even more unsafe.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

''I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should ''THINK'' it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, ''CANNOT SAY'' on which side it came from''. Albert Cadosch


See the difference Herlock, Just the ''think'' and ''cannot say'' changes everything , make sure you use them next time ok .

[JeffHamm]

''I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should ''THINK'' it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, ''CANNOT SAY'' on which side it came from''. Albert Cadosch


See the difference Herlock, Just the ''think'' and ''cannot say'' changes everything , make sure you use them next time ok .

He cannot say on which side of what it came from? Which side of #29?, in which case he's just saying "It was from #29 yard, but which side of the yard I couldn't be sure", but it's still #29 all the same.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Annie Chapman's Final Hours

" It is considered difficult to believe that a woman who was so well known in the district cannot be traced for four hours."


- The Star
13 September, 1888

[FISHY1118]

On the day of the murder, , John Richardson made no mention of sitting down on the steps and cutting a piece of leather from his shoe. This is virtually the same story that he told Chandler and thus some doubt is thrown on Richardson's later version of events. There is even more damning evidence which goes against Richardson's story.

[PaulB]

He cannot say on which side of what it came from? Which side of #29?, in which case he's just saying "It was from #29 yard, but which side of the yard I couldn't be sure", but it's still #29 all the same.

- Jeff

There's no other way of interpreting what Mr Cadosch said, is there?

[FISHY1118]

He cannot say on which side of what it came from? Which side of #29?, in which case he's just saying "It was from #29 yard, but which side of the yard I couldn't be sure", but it's still #29 all the same.

So you think it was a ''no'' in 29 but with side of 29 ? hmmmmmmmm not sure that one will fly , not sure why anyone would want to try explain which side of the yard a ''no'' came from either left or right , especially in Codoschs case seems irreverent really

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please retract this false statement , its misleading

Its a statement of fact. Can’t you read? He thought number 29 but was cautious and said that it could have come from elsewhere.

“. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

Embarrassing.

You need to stop typing and start reading.

Forensic expert after Forensic expert. The most respected authorities on the subject. Not ripperologists but published experts. And there’s not a single one Fishy....not one....that supports Phillips. Every single one says that he could not have made an accurate TOD estimation. This is black and white. It’s a non-argument perpetuated by the dishonest. Phillips can be dismissed. He wasn’t a magician. He didn’t have magic hands. He could not have accurately estimate Chapman’s TOD. Why are you desperately continuing this? Are you a Forensic expert? Is Trevor? Is Fish? No but every single one of the people that I’ve quoted is.

Phillips is finished. Anyone that says otherwise is simply allowing bias to lead them into embarrassing positions.


What is embarrassing Herlock is you my friend you . You definitely need to pay more attention when responding to someones post . You have totally ignored what i posted, instead you chose to again waffle waffle waffle about forensic experts blah blah blah . Its been done to death by you over and over , but like always you just refuse to except what is right there in front of you, and that is Long Codosch and Richardson cannot and should not be accepted as proof the time of Chapman death was 5.30am. For god sake man give up , Wolf, Trevor and myself have explain it to you , start listening.

You’re posts are a joke I’m afraid. The whole crux of the debate is that it has been proven that Phillips simply cannot have predicted the TOD accurately unless by luck. This might be inconvenient to you but it’s a proven fact nonetheless. Therefore Dr Gandalf Phillips cannot and should not be used. His opinion is now redundant.

And so we have three witness who all provide evidence that Chapman died later. The effort that has be expended to try and discredit them by you and others has been frankly an embarrassment to reason, logic and common sense.

No, we cannot say this for certain. No one has said this is 100% certain certain. But it’s overwhelmingly likely.

All you are doing Fishy is embarrassing yourself and the subject by your wish-thinking and very obvious bias. You, Fish and PS all need an earlier TO. To myself, Jon, JohnG, Etenguy, Sam, HarryD, PaulB, Jeff and others the TOD has no bearing on a theory.

And lets face it, who takes anyone seriously that believes the Knight/Sickert theory?

[Herlock Sholmes]

''I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should ''THINK'' it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, ''CANNOT SAY'' on which side it came from''. Albert Cadosch


See the difference Herlock, Just the ''think'' and ''cannot say'' changes everything , make sure you use them next time ok .

Yes. He admitted to not being certain. As I’ve said numerous times. But he still said:

. but I should ''THINK'' it came from the yard of No. 29.

So he obviously favoured number 29.

And when it came to the noise he was absolutely certain.

Grow up.