Chapman’s death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let’s just get this out there...

Any suggestion that Annie was killed elsewhere and dropped in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street is palpable nonsense. This meritless suggestion is worthy of no respect only unending derision. It’s time to stop pandering to drivel.

[John G]

That's not what's going on here John
There are two medical reasons combined together suggesting an early TOD
Many here are looking for them both to be out .
Phillip's is one ,digestion is the other .
When you combine the two the balance of probabilities suggests that an early TOD is likely to be correct rather than Phillip's being miles out in conjunction with some unusual slow down in digestion.

See my above post. Poly-trauma can dramatically slow digestion! And Chapman may have been very underweight, which would have had a fairly substantial affect on body temperature, to the extent that she may well have been cold to the touch whilst still alive!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Find me 3 others that 100 percent agree with this statement in regards to Codosch and Richardson.

Look at the poll at the beginning of the thread Fishy.

4 people voted for exactly that.

10 voted that all witnesses were correct.

Only 1 voted for Gandalf Phillips.

[John G]

Let’s just get this out there...

Any suggestion that Annie was killed elsewhere and dropped in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street is palpable nonsense. This meritless suggestion is worthy of no respect only unending derision. It’s time to stop pandering to drivel.

I agree. Unfortunately some individuals are intent on proving their particular theory, at which point objectivity goes completely out of the window.

For instance, ToD studies usually refer to normal circumstances. But there was nothing usual about Chapman's death: liklely low body weight, eviscerated, neck severely cut, killed outdoors...

[FISHY1118]

A

ny suggestion that Annie was killed elsewhere and dropped in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street is palpable nonsense. This meritless suggestion is worthy of no respect only unending derision. It’s time to stop pandering to drivel.

As long as we stop pandering to the same drivel that Eddowes had her kidney and uterus removed in the darkest corner of Mitre square in 5 mins.

[FISHY1118]

He said that it felt that it came from number 29 but he couldn’t be certain. He was simply being cautious and honest.

Translation . He was unsure

[Elamarna]

You have written a book lately I think, haven't you ?! Then I suppose you must have good experience or some connections with experts by now, good!

I CHALLENGE you, to give me only ONE expert, who says EXACTLY those words:

Phillips dodgy TOD (which we now know can safely be discarded)

All of those words exactly including the doctor's name (Dr. Phillip) I may accept the exclusion of the word (dodgy) which I doubt an expert would say, but who knows what expert you can come up with.


I will not buy nor read your book until you bring me this! Even then, I don't feel interested really after reading some of your hasty posts just to support a friend, or to satisfy a bias.


But thanks for commenting any way.



The Baron

How utterly ridiculous to ask for an expert to quote the exact words another poster uses.

It is not the exact words but the meaning that counts.. To ask for exact words, demonstrates the weakness of your argument, which you are clearly aware of.

However so as not to dissapoint, in his works Trevor uses Dr Michael Biggs, who says

"Suggesting that death happened 30 minutes previously based on subjective observations would be laughed out of court these days.."

He adds that the best we can do today, even with recorded temps is a window of a couple of hours.
He goes onto say that they really believed they could be this certain in 88, but modern science as shown such not be the case.

I think that covers all bases.

Why should I be bothered if you read my work or not.
Your approval is really not something I crave.
It is you who are missing out.

Steve

[The Baron]

How utterly ridiculous to ask for an expert to quote the exact words another poster uses.

It is not the exact words but the meaning that counts.. To ask for exact words, demonstrates the weakness of your argument, which you are clearly aware of.

However so as not to dissapoint, in his works Trevor uses Dr Michael Biggs, who says

"Suggesting that death happened 30 minutes previously based on subjective observations would be laughed out of court these days.."

He adds that the best we can do today, even with recorded temps is a window of a couple of hours.
He goes onto say that they really believed they could be this certain in 88, but modern science as shown such not be the case.

I think that covers all bases.

Why should I be bothered if you read my work or not.
Your approval is really not something I crave.
It is you who are missing out.

Steve

So you can't. Ok.

Your book will not be on my list.



The Baron

[Elamarna]

So you can't. Ok.

Your book will not be on my list.



The Baron

I just did my friend.
The content is exactly inline with the comments of Herlock.
A forensic pathologist saying subjective timings to 30 minutes would be laughed out of court, say it is
A) dodgy
B) safe to discard.

That you wish to reduce debate to a purile level of pretentious game playing for exact words, is your choice, and does nothing to improve the reputation of this subject.

As I said I am not concerned that such as you do not wish to read my book, It would almost certainly add to your apparently limited knowledge of the subject. Your loss, not mine.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

A

As long as we stop pandering to the same drivel that Eddowes had her kidney and uterus removed in the darkest corner of Mitre square in 5 mins.

Prove categorically that this couldn’t have occurred. You cannot.

Simply quoting a couple of doctors isn’t enough Fishy as there are far more that disagree with them. And when it comes to estimating TOD I’m not just saying that two or three experts throw doubt on Phillips. I’m saying that all experts say that he couldn’t have predicted the TOD accurately.

And so your point, like all of your others, holds no water at all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Translation . He was unsure

And no one, including myself, have ever denied this Fishy. Obviously you focus on this in your desperate attempt to discredit him to shoehorn your discredited theory in. He was in no doubt whatsoever about hearing something brushing against the fence though. Which meant that someone was in that yard, with a corpse. You are desperately trying to make out that this was a cat or a dog. What a joke.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just did my friend.
The content is exactly inline with the comments of Herlock.
A forensic pathologist saying subjective timings to 30 minutes would be laughed out of court, say it is
A) dodgy
B) safe to discard.

That you wish to reduce debate to a purile level of pretentious game playing for exact words, is your choice, and does nothing to improve the reputation of this subject.

As I said I am not concerned that such as you do not wish to read my book, It would almost certainly add to your apparently limited knowledge of the subject. Your loss, not mine.


Steve

Exactly

[Herlock Sholmes]

I posted evidence showing just the opposite.
Its only dead in your mind and those who wish it to be for their own beliefs

From "Time of Death, Decompensation and Identification: An Atlas" by Jay Dix and Michael Graham (1999):

"Some foods such as celery, onion, potato, corn and tomato skins typically take longer than meat or other foods to exit the stomach"

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have written a book lately I think, haven't you ?! Then I suppose you must have good experience or some connections with experts by now, good!

I CHALLENGE you, to give me only ONE expert, who says EXACTLY those words:

Phillips dodgy TOD (which we now know can safely be discarded)

All of those words exactly including the doctor's name (Dr. Phillip) I may accept the exclusion of the word (dodgy) which I doubt an expert would say, but who knows what expert you can come up with.


I will not buy nor read your book until you bring me this! Even then, I don't feel interested really after reading some of your hasty posts just to support a friend, or to satisfy a bias.


But thanks for commenting any way.



The Baron

This is from Simpson's Forensic Medicine (2011), lead author: Jason Payne James:


'Sometimes the perceived warmth of the body to touch is mentioned in court as an indicator of the time of death; this assessment is so unreliable as to be useless...'


"useless" is pretty much identical to "dodgy".

It means that this method should not be used. It doesn’t get plainer or more inarguable than this. Unless of course you maintain that your knowledge of forensics is greater than that of Payne-James Baron?

Do you?

Thought not.

[etenguy]

As I said I am not concerned that such as you do not wish to read my book, It would almost certainly add to your apparently limited knowledge of the subject. Your loss, not mine.
Steve

Which book did you write?