Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chapman’s death.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

    32 degrees Celsius is hypothermia. We shudder and shake helplessly long before that stage, and actually seize to do so when we creep under 32 degrees - because we enter the death zone, more or less. There are no signs at all that Chapman suffered from hypothermia - in all probability, she kept the same temperature as most of us, meaning that she was above 36 degrees.

    And two hours would have been an early onset of rigor. One hour is not likely in the least.

    It is time to stop promoting a picture of Chapman as a unique medical specimen. It is much, much, much, much, much likelier that Long and Cadosch were wrong - that does not take any extreme body temperatures or any rocket rigor.
    Both you and Shylock make up "facts" to suit yourselves and then embark on a circular argument totally ignoring the facts.

    Hypothermia - Wikipedia
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DJA View Post

      Cachous were an expensive,very new product from France at that time.

      Doubt they were on sale in the vicinity.
      Well, according to the Harrods catalogue of 1895, cachous were priced at 0/3 per ounce, although I seriously doubt that Stride purchased her cachous from Harrods, so she may have paid considerably less. Anyway, to put that into perspective 0/3 was equivalent to the price of 3 candles in 1888 or, if you prefer, around half the price of the average weekly expenditure on cocoa: :http://www.victorianweb.org/economics/wages4.html

      Comment


      • On body temperatures, from a book on mountaneering, where hypothermia is a real risk: "Approaching a body temperature of 32 degrees Celsius, uncovered skin can begin to swell and color, feeling ice cold to the touch. At this stage, a person might be semi-conscious, with dilated pupils and a barely registrable pulse."

        Does this remind us of Annie Chapman? Really?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DJA View Post

          Both you and Shylock make up "facts" to suit yourselves and then embark on a circular argument totally ignoring the facts.

          Hypothermia - Wikipedia
          I remember when I told you that convection was an important factor in the cooling off of a dead body and you claimed I was stupid and arrogant. You added that it was all a question of radiation. Here is some more information in the errand that I saved for you:

          "During life the human body loses heat by radiation, convection, and evaporation. Heat loss by conduction is not an important factor during life, but after death it may be considerable if the body is lying on a cold surface. The fall in body temperature after death mainly depends upon a loss of heat through radiation and convection, but evaporation may be a significant factor if the body or clothing is wet. The cooling of a body is a predominantly physical process which, therefore, is predominantly determined by physical rules."

          So if I´m arrogant, I am in fact arrogant and correct.

          So much for one of us ignoring the facts.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

            Rigor in itself is not very reliable - or unreliable. But when coupled with body temperature, it is another thing altogether. All of Phillips´ observations support each other. Also, as I have repeatedly pointed out, there are things that speak for a SLOWER onset of rigor in Chamans case, just as there are things that speak of a swifter one. But IF she had developed rigor in TWO hours only, it would be slightly odd, given the temperature. Two hours is a quick onset - the scale works with 2-4 hours being the normal span. So to allow for two hours is generous. To allow for one is out of touch with reality.

            it is time to wake up now!
            I agree that rigor has many variables, which is why it is such an unreliable indicator and should be discounted. Two hours is not quick onset, but within the average range. Chapman was clearly severely undernourished, so I see no reason why her initial body temperature couldn't have been in the very low range, say, 35.5 C. 1 hour after death this would have fallen to around 34.63 degrees C. Note: a body temperature lower than 35C equates to hypothermia.

            Have you a source for the argument that the body temperature would have to sink as low as 32 degrees to he regarded as cold to the touch?
            Last edited by John G; 09-26-2019, 05:36 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
              On body temperatures, from a book on mountaneering, where hypothermia is a real risk: "Approaching a body temperature of 32 degrees Celsius, uncovered skin can begin to swell and color, feeling ice cold to the touch. At this stage, a person might be semi-conscious, with dilated pupils and a barely registrable pulse."

              Does this remind us of Annie Chapman? Really?
              That's hypothermia. Do you have source material for the proposition that a body would have to reach 32 degrees C to be cold to the touch? Where did Dr Phillips say that Chapman felt iced cold?
              Last edited by John G; 09-26-2019, 05:39 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by John G View Post

                Well, according to the Harrods catalogue of 1895, cachous were priced at 0/3 per ounce, although I seriously doubt that Stride purchased her cachous from Harrods, so she may have paid considerably less. Anyway, to put that into perspective 0/3 was equivalent to the price of 3 candles in 1888 or, if you prefer, around half the price of the average weekly expenditure on cocoa: :http://www.victorianweb.org/economics/wages4.html
                By 1895 the French cachous were an established item,however not in 1888.Spent a fair bit of time on that a decade ago.

                0/3 was the AWE for medical attendance of a small family in 1888

                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                  By 1895 the French cachous were an established item,however not in 1888.Spent a fair bit of time on that a decade ago.

                  0/3 was the AWE for medical attendance of a small family in 1888
                  Yes, apparently as cheap as a quarter pound of barley sugar. Mind you, seems about right for Dr Phillips!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                    I remember when I told you that convection was an important factor in the cooling off of a dead body and you claimed I was stupid and arrogant. You added that it was all a question of radiation. Here is some more information in the errand that I saved for you:

                    "During life the human body loses heat by radiation, convection, and evaporation. Heat loss by conduction is not an important factor during life, but after death it may be considerable if the body is lying on a cold surface. The fall in body temperature after death mainly depends upon a loss of heat through radiation and convection, but evaporation may be a significant factor if the body or clothing is wet. The cooling of a body is a predominantly physical process which, therefore, is predominantly determined by physical rules."

                    So if I´m arrogant, I am in fact arrogant and correct.

                    So much for one of us ignoring the facts.
                    Heat radiates.

                    Chapman was well insulated by clothing,as were the other C5.

                    She was lying on a cold backyard.

                    Those are the facts.

                    Shame you are incapable of dragging up relevant facts,like the publication Joshua and I posted about.

                    Good save on your sweetmeats vs cachous post
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                      Cachous were an expensive,very new product from France at that time.

                      Doubt they were on sale in the vicinity.
                      Cachous is not some brand name item, it is a generic name for a breath freshening lozenge, of which there were plenty of varieties available in London during the LVP. If you are referring to some kind of Lancôme version of them, I would agree that expensive breath fresheners were beyond the reach of the average Unfortunate. Since they could get a bed for 4D a night, and she was paid 6d for cleaning that afternoon, there was plenty to get the flowers and the fresheners contextually.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by John G View Post

                        Yes, apparently as cheap as a quarter pound of barley sugar. Mind you, seems about right for Dr Phillips!
                        8 oz barley sugar (being half a pound)

                        or

                        1 oz cachous

                        3d

                        1895


                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John G View Post

                          Well, according to the Harrods catalogue of 1895, cachous were priced at 0/3 per ounce, although I seriously doubt that Stride purchased her cachous from Harrods
                          Indeed. Furthermore, an ordinary person might have called them throat sweets or cough drops, in which case they could have been of the cheapest variety. The somewhat grand word "cachous" was, after all, a description by a middle-class doctor. I'm reminded of Lord Mandelson who, on visiting a chip shop, apparently saw some mushy peas and asked if he could have "some of that guacamole".

                          Incidentally, re Dave's suggestion that cachous were quite new in 1888, the OED shows that they'd been around for just over 200 years by then, albeit in variant spellings:

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Cachous.jpg Views:	0 Size:	17.3 KB ID:	723365

                          ... and not necessarily from France, even if the word itself is. That said, the "Spanish" here might refer to licorice, as it was sometimes known as "Spanish root", or just "Spanish" (it's what we used to call it when I was a kid, as it happens).
                          Last edited by Sam Flynn; 09-26-2019, 06:11 PM.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            Cachous is not some brand name item, it is a generic name for a breath freshening lozenge, of which there were plenty of varieties available in London during the LVP. If you are referring to some kind of Lancôme version of them, I would agree that expensive breath fresheners were beyond the reach of the average Unfortunate. Since they could get a bed for 4D a night, and she was paid 6d for cleaning that afternoon, there was plenty to get the flowers and the fresheners contextually.
                            You are making that up.

                            Any proof at all.

                            There was one French import in 1888 and it was very new.It is an ancient medicine used as an astringent and breath freshener.

                            There was liquorice "something" cake at the time.A much larger sweet.Might have started with "P".
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              Heat radiates.

                              Chapman was well insulated by clothing,as were the other C5.

                              She was lying on a cold backyard.

                              Those are the facts.

                              Well, you seem to conveniently forget that you claimed in your former post to me that convection was not an important factor. Now that I provide evidence to the contrary, you start speaking of Chapmans insulation - which will have had an influence, but convection will nevertheless have played a role. So basically, what you are doing is to avoid acknowledging that you were wrong back then, which is awfully intersting taken in combination with this:

                              Shame you are incapable of dragging up relevant facts,like the publication Joshua and I posted about.

                              It seems you are just as incapable of accepting facts as you claim I am. I have known for the longest that there wee factors involved that could have had an influence on Chapmans body temperature and her rigor. But I have also made it very clear that there were factors that spoke for a SLOWER rigor and a WARMER temperature in Chapmans body, and so I am not happy about how efforts are made to shoehorn her into something that could perhaps allow for the witnesses to come into play. We have no certainty about any of these factors and their potential influence on Chapmans body and rigor, and so we should not work from an assumption that whatever the cost, we must prioritize the witnesses.

                              Good save on your sweetmeats vs cachous post
                              What save are you talking about? The pills were described as sweetmeats by people who saw them, and "cachous" can be either strong breath pills - or flower scented, mild tablets.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by John G View Post

                                That's hypothermia. Do you have source material for the proposition that a body would have to reach 32 degrees C to be cold to the touch? Where did Dr Phillips say that Chapman felt iced cold?
                                Normally, a body will feel cold to the touch after 4-6 hours. That means that if it falls from 36 degrees, it will fall by 3.2 - 4.8 degrees, approximately, reaching around 31-32 degrees. During the first three hours after death, medicos will typically be able to pick up some degree of warmth. And neither Phillips nor I said that Chapman felt ice cold, John - both of us knew/know that there was a little warmth left under the intestines.

                                Overall, your case is not a useful one. Chapman would not have grown cold in an hour only, we just don´t do that.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X