Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chapmanís death.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
    The autopsy on Stride's heart is evidence of death by strangling.

    Regarding Chapman,was her throat cut after death.

    We have various ideas on how long that takes.
    Okay, fair points. Of course, the issue I was getting at is that the heart stops beating upon death therefore, in such circumstances, you wouldn't get arterial spray, i.e because blood is no longer being pumped around the body under pressure.

    Comment


    • Still under pressure for quite a while.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
        Still under pressure for quite a while.
        I accept that the heart can still beat for a short while post mortem, but wouldn't this be at a much lower rate, resulting in negligible blood pressure?

        Comment



        • Circulatory system is basically a closed system under pressure.

          Pressure does go down when the pump stops.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

            Itís a brick wall of poor logic Jeff.
            Not everybody understands the logic behind drawing inferences from evidence, and so end up confusing their hypothesis either for proof or for evidence. So, when we have things like Richardson's testimony that he was at the market, combined with independent verification he was there via Mr. Pearlman, those are real bits of evidence that place Richardson elsewhere at the time of the noise.

            The Baron argues, essentially, that Richardson must have left work, returned to #29, stole the rings and bumped the fence, and returned to work. The Baron also argues that Annie was already dead at this point in time as he argues she was killed at 4:30 or earlier. But since Richardson checked the yard at 4:50, Richardson could know Annie was there. Presumably he then decides that it might be worth checking the body for valuables (clearly, he's not thinking it would be a good idea to report the body in the backyard of his mother's house since he doesn't do that even in The Baron's suggestion).

            What Richardson couldn't know, of course, is whether or not her body had been discovered since he left the first time. So he sneaks away from work, undetected, steals the rings, bumps the fence, and returns to work, also unnoticed, and then goes on with his day until told by Pearman about the body. He then returns to the scene, possibly with blood on him now as he's been taking rings of a bloodied corpse, etc, and brings police attention to himself by talking with the PC at the scene.

            That, I think, seems to be what The Baron's hypothesis must be.

            The alternative is, Richardson checked the cellar door at 4:50, did not see a body, went to work as per usual, was told about the body being found, returned to his mother's house, and reported to the police that there was no body when he checked the yard at 4:50, providing further details of his actions on subsequent occasions that do not change that basic statement.

            While the evidence we have does fit both of those suggestions, the former explanation involves a lot of activities (Richardson leaving and returning to work, but not being noticed, for example), which exist only in the sense they are not impossible, despite being highly improbable. When two explanations both can explain the evidence, one weighs the relative probabilities, and rejects as conjecture those which are relatively highly improbable. The Baron's implied set of events (I admit, I'm having to infer what exactly he thinks must have happened, but it seems it must be something pretty close to what I've sketched out above) are far more improbable than the alternative, and generally accepted, view.

            That means, in order to be seriously considered as an alternative explanation, The Baron has to show that his suggestion is, in fact, more probable then it currently stands. But that can only be done through the supplying of new evidence, in particular evidence that becomes difficult for the accepted view to explain. New evidence that can easily be explained by both does little to change the relative probabilities, new evidence the accepted view cannot explain would result in a rejection of the accepted view. or a modification of it, such that it now starts to become the more complicated and improbable account.

            That is how evidence drives theories, and helps to advance our understanding. It's how new evidence can end up changing our view. And this is what I meant when I indicated the onus is on The Baron to supply that evidence because his alternative explanation is far too complicated to be considered a viable option, and it is therefore rejected on that basis. Should new evidence be introduced, then the relative probabilities may shift.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

              This would be after he rendered her unconscious due to strangling her , is that correct ?

              Right after she said ''no'' is this also correct ?

              And they were between the steps and the fence and there was no sign of a struggle ? correct?

              Just want to make sure we agree on this .
              At the moment Iím entertaining the notion that he knocked her senseless. I donít think he choked her. I think she would have fought that. I think they her standing where her feet were in the yard, and he knocked her senseless and lowered her down behind the stairs, The other side of the stairs being blocked by the entrance to the basement. Iím sure thereís any number of issues with the notion, but trying to cut her around stairs was a solveable issue, even if it meant he had to mind his elbows for a minute.
              The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                Circulatory system is basically a closed system under pressure.

                Pressure does go down when the pump stops.
                Wouldn't a severe neck injury be likely to result in cardiac arrest, whereby the heart stops pumping?

                Comment


                • This from Dr Biggs: " Things like vessel spasm and rapid clotting can be surprisingly good at staunching the flow of blood fron even very catastrophic injuries." (Marriott, 2013.) This may explain the lack of arterial spray in, say, the Stride case.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                    Not everybody understands the logic behind drawing inferences from evidence, and so end up confusing their hypothesis either for proof or for evidence. So, when we have things like Richardson's testimony that he was at the market, combined with independent verification he was there via Mr. Pearlman, those are real bits of evidence that place Richardson elsewhere at the time of the noise.

                    The Baron argues, essentially, that Richardson must have left work, returned to #29, stole the rings and bumped the fence, and returned to work. The Baron also argues that Annie was already dead at this point in time as he argues she was killed at 4:30 or earlier. But since Richardson checked the yard at 4:50, Richardson could know Annie was there. Presumably he then decides that it might be worth checking the body for valuables (clearly, he's not thinking it would be a good idea to report the body in the backyard of his mother's house since he doesn't do that even in The Baron's suggestion).

                    What Richardson couldn't know, of course, is whether or not her body had been discovered since he left the first time. So he sneaks away from work, undetected, steals the rings, bumps the fence, and returns to work, also unnoticed, and then goes on with his day until told by Pearman about the body. He then returns to the scene, possibly with blood on him now as he's been taking rings of a bloodied corpse, etc, and brings police attention to himself by talking with the PC at the scene.

                    That, I think, seems to be what The Baron's hypothesis must be.

                    The alternative is, Richardson checked the cellar door at 4:50, did not see a body, went to work as per usual, was told about the body being found, returned to his mother's house, and reported to the police that there was no body when he checked the yard at 4:50, providing further details of his actions on subsequent occasions that do not change that basic statement.

                    While the evidence we have does fit both of those suggestions, the former explanation involves a lot of activities (Richardson leaving and returning to work, but not being noticed, for example), which exist only in the sense they are not impossible, despite being highly improbable. When two explanations both can explain the evidence, one weighs the relative probabilities, and rejects as conjecture those which are relatively highly improbable. The Baron's implied set of events (I admit, I'm having to infer what exactly he thinks must have happened, but it seems it must be something pretty close to what I've sketched out above) are far more improbable than the alternative, and generally accepted, view.

                    That means, in order to be seriously considered as an alternative explanation, The Baron has to show that his suggestion is, in fact, more probable then it currently stands. But that can only be done through the supplying of new evidence, in particular evidence that becomes difficult for the accepted view to explain. New evidence that can easily be explained by both does little to change the relative probabilities, new evidence the accepted view cannot explain would result in a rejection of the accepted view. or a modification of it, such that it now starts to become the more complicated and improbable account.

                    . It's how new evidence can end up changing our view. And this is what I meant when I indicated the onus is on The Baron to supply that evidence because his alternative explanation is far too complicated to be considered a viable option, and it is therefore rejected on that basis. Should new evidence be introduced, then the relative probabilities may shift.

                    - Jeff
                    I couldnít have put it better Jeff. This is exactly the issue with many interpretations imo. I keep hearing ďwell can you say itís impossibleĒ or simply ďitís not impossible.Ē This is why I couldnít resist my bit of sarcasm about Amelia Richardson and Fred Abberline in rabbit costumes. Saying that something isnít impossible is just an example of reaching for the lowest hanging fruit. Thereís so much that we cannot know for certain. And so all thatís left to do is weigh up what we have. We canít just drop in a few Ďcertaintiesí to make the pieces fit. We can postulate as long as it isnít straining believability beyond breaking point. For example, itís Ďnot impossibleí that both Long and Cadosch could have been 7 or 8 minutes out in their timing. This would make their timings match up with each other. Now this isnít bending the facts to fit because a) Iím only stating it as a reasonable possibility and not a certainty, and b) the times cannot be considered as facts. They are approximations. They might have been exactly correct or they might have been a few minutes out. Without watches or clocks this is simply a fact.

                    We also canít just make assumptions or to state opinion as fact. Earlier Fishy stated that Chapmanís killer was on Annieís right as he mutilated her. He stated this as if it was a fact. We have nothing to go on here to even point us in that direction. We canít view any aspect of the case objectively in this way. Another piece of poor logic concerns Cadosch. Now we know that he felt that the Ďnoí came from number 29 but he was honest enough to say that he could have been mistaken. He was cautious in other words. When it came to the sound against the fence though, he was certain. What kind of logic is it that says that because he was uncertain/cautious about the Ďnoí then that makes him an unreliable witness and that we should dismiss his statement that he heard a noise against the fence? In what world does this approach logic?

                    That is how evidence drives theories, and helps to advance our understanding
                    Exactly, but for me itís an unavoidable conclusion that there is a lot of evidence being cherry-picked to suit a theory going on in some quarters. The disappointing thing is that some cannot see the irony of laymen trying to tell the worldís Forensic authorities that theyíve simply gotten it wrong in all of their textbooks and in all of their papers. How can the case be discussed reasonably when the rules of logic, reason and even common sense are ejected as surplus to requirements?
                    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 09-25-2019, 10:09 PM.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                    “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                    Comment


                    • We also canít just make assumptions or to state opinion as fact. Earlier Fishy stated that Chapmanís killer was on Annieís right as he mutilated her. He stated this as if it was a fact.
                      I dont believe i did state that as a fact herlock , i was trying, and will show in my opinion the killer was not on Annie left hand side when he cut her throat while she was on the ground .

                      But you somehow managed tho balls that up as usual

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Errata View Post

                        At the moment Iím entertaining the notion that he knocked her senseless. I donít think he choked her. I think she would have fought that. I think they her standing where her feet were in the yard, and he knocked her senseless and lowered her down behind the stairs, The other side of the stairs being blocked by the entrance to the basement. Iím sure thereís any number of issues with the notion, but trying to cut her around stairs was a solveable issue, even if it meant he had to mind his elbows for a minute.
                        Hi Errata,

                        I recognize your concerns about choking and the lack of signs of a struggle. However, there appears to be a similar lack of signs for a blow strong enough to render her non-responsive as well. No major bruising consistent with such a blow is reported, although evidence of her fight a few days earlier are mentioned and recognized as such, so we know bruising was examined and considered closely.

                        Choking/strangulation, of course, would prevent her from crying out, so the lack of any yells or sounds with regards to a struggle could easily be accounted for. Annie Chapman was in poor health, and had been up since the day before, both would suggest she was not physically imposing (it sounds like she lost the fight over the soap as well, also suggesting she was not a particularly strong or skilled fighter). JtR is generally thought to be the opposite, in so much as he is suggested to be someone with more than average stength. If so, he may very well have been able to physically control her while choking her. I would, however, have expected her to defend herself in some ways, and would not be surprised if JtR ended up with scratches, either on his arms and hands, or his face. Unfortunately, no report of any examination of her fingernails seems to have been made, suggesting they may not have been examined to see if there might indeed have been any skin lodged under them. (Random thought here - if Eddowes, though, had scratched JtR on the face, that may have angered him resulting in the first instance of facial mutilations - but I digress into speculation here).

                        Scuff marks and such of her feet shifting about could very well have been obscured, or non-existance pending on whether her feet were on the paving stones at the bottom of the stairs when the attack happened; or they may simply have been obscured by JtRs subsequent movement and activities,, or even those of the police and doctors when they examined the scene. Based upon the minimal crime scene examination in the case of Nichols, for example, there does not seem to have been a standard protocol with regards to securing the area first. Learning to preserve the crime scene prior to beginning the search for evidence was something that police developed over time since then.

                        Anyway, choking/strangulation would also mean she was in his grip the whole time, making it easier to then lay her down as she was found, while a blow strong enough to render her unresponsive, is likely to knock her away from him, falling out of control. Once placed where she was, though, it appears he then cuts her throat, and given her position, and the steps, and fence, he probably is somewhere around her waist and legs. Either in lowering her down next to the fence, or having to lean over her to cut her throat (as the blood spray on the fence indicates that was her position at the time of that event), both offer an opportunity for his shoulder to bump the fence producing Cadosche's noise (and putting JtR in a position and activity that makes it quite possible he remained unaware of Cadoshe's return - he wasn't being risky, he was being unattentive).

                        I'm not saying the above must be what happened, though, only presenting it as something to consider. I suspect you already have, so I'm interested in hearing what aspects of that you have concluded warrant going with the knock out punch type of initial attack, because I see that as having some indication of "evidence of absence" (bruises were examined and none found consistent with such a blow), while the lack of evidence for a struggle strikes me more as "absence of evidence" (doesn't look like there was an examination of her fingernails, doesn't seem to have been a great policy of "secure before search", etc). While the former (evidence of absence) seems to go against a blow, the latter (absence of evidence) leaves open strangulation even with a struggle.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John G View Post

                          Wouldn't a severe neck injury be likely to result in cardiac arrest, whereby the heart stops pumping?
                          What did you have in mind?
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by John G View Post
                            This from Dr Biggs: " Things like vessel spasm and rapid clotting can be surprisingly good at staunching the flow of blood fron even very catastrophic injuries." (Marriott, 2013.) This may explain the lack of arterial spray in, say, the Stride case.
                            Do you think that's why Jack gave her the cachous?
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                              Hi Errata,

                              I recognize your concerns about choking and the lack of signs of a struggle. However, there appears to be a similar lack of signs for a blow strong enough to render her non-responsive as well. No major bruising consistent with such a blow is reported, although evidence of her fight a few days earlier are mentioned and recognized as such, so we know bruising was examined and considered closely.

                              Choking/strangulation, of course, would prevent her from crying out, so the lack of any yells or sounds with regards to a struggle could easily be accounted for. Annie Chapman was in poor health, and had been up since the day before, both would suggest she was not physically imposing (it sounds like she lost the fight over the soap as well, also suggesting she was not a particularly strong or skilled fighter). JtR is generally thought to be the opposite, in so much as he is suggested to be someone with more than average stength. If so, he may very well have been able to physically control her while choking her. I would, however, have expected her to defend herself in some ways, and would not be surprised if JtR ended up with scratches, either on his arms and hands, or his face. Unfortunately, no report of any examination of her fingernails seems to have been made, suggesting they may not have been examined to see if there might indeed have been any skin lodged under them. (Random thought here - if Eddowes, though, had scratched JtR on the face, that may have angered him resulting in the first instance of facial mutilations - but I digress into speculation here).

                              Scuff marks and such of her feet shifting about could very well have been obscured, or non-existance pending on whether her feet were on the paving stones at the bottom of the stairs when the attack happened; or they may simply have been obscured by JtRs subsequent movement and activities,, or even those of the police and doctors when they examined the scene. Based upon the minimal crime scene examination in the case of Nichols, for example, there does not seem to have been a standard protocol with regards to securing the area first. Learning to preserve the crime scene prior to beginning the search for evidence was something that police developed over time since then.

                              Anyway, choking/strangulation would also mean she was in his grip the whole time, making it easier to then lay her down as she was found, while a blow strong enough to render her unresponsive, is likely to knock her away from him, falling out of control. Once placed where she was, though, it appears he then cuts her throat, and given her position, and the steps, and fence, he probably is somewhere around her waist and legs. Either in lowering her down next to the fence, or having to lean over her to cut her throat (as the blood spray on the fence indicates that was her position at the time of that event), both offer an opportunity for his shoulder to bump the fence producing Cadosche's noise (and putting JtR in a position and activity that makes it quite possible he remained unaware of Cadoshe's return - he wasn't being risky, he was being unattentive).

                              I'm not saying the above must be what happened, though, only presenting it as something to consider. I suspect you already have, so I'm interested in hearing what aspects of that you have concluded warrant going with the knock out punch type of initial attack, because I see that as having some indication of "evidence of absence" (bruises were examined and none found consistent with such a blow), while the lack of evidence for a struggle strikes me more as "absence of evidence" (doesn't look like there was an examination of her fingernails, doesn't seem to have been a great policy of "secure before search", etc). While the former (evidence of absence) seems to go against a blow, the latter (absence of evidence) leaves open strangulation even with a struggle.

                              - Jeff
                              Okay I've temporarily forgotten how to multiquote, so this will go top to bottom

                              1: I'm not sure how far bruising would have advanced, given she was exsanguinated moments later. Also if she was strangled after being hit that would affect it too. So I genuinely don't know what that bruising would look like. Her face was swollen, there was an abrasion on the right side, there were bruises of various ages. One was clearly from the fight, the bruise on the temple. But there was bruising on the jaw. Not having seen it... yeah.

                              2: Choking does not actually render someone silent. You have a better shot with that manually choking someone while pushing them up against a wall? Vocal cords rely as much on vertical movement and horizontal, so the only real barrier is the lack of air flow. Its really hard to completely cut that off. Can you quote Shakespeare? no. Its sounds a little like the Aflac duck having a stroke. It will wake no one, but if a dude is on the way back from the outhouse and is on the other side of the fence, he will hear it. It sounds a lot like someone being choked. To be fair, striking someone makes a sound too, but I think it is a sound that is easier to mistake for something else, or if it precedes a blow to the fence, it might get be experienced as one sound. Maybe.

                              3. I would expect Mrs. Chapman to have been easy to kill in a lot of ways, hard in others. She was five foot nothin. There are not a ton of men who could not overpower her based on that alone. Add in her fairly advanced tuberculosis, maybe syphilis...easy mark. On the other hand she was a stout woman. Moving her might have taken a bit. Also the more thick around the neck a person is, whether is be fat or muscle, the harder it is strangle them. Not impossible, but without completely shutting down the blood flow, that means fighting. And fighting next to a poorly maintained fence should have sounded like doors slamming.

                              4: The only part of Cadosche's testimony that seems strange to me is the "No." I believe something hit the fence, I can think of a good half dozen explanations, that doesn't bother me. But the "no" is a bit weird. The transactional stuff should have been taken care of.

                              5: Mostly though, this is all based on the brain. Which was a train wreck given her disease and her attack, but the swelling and edema in the grey matter itself (as opposed to in the meninges which had loads of other problems). Given the lack of cracks in the skull, or projectiles, or rare genetic conditions that made it unlikely her age at death, thats a closed brain injury. My argument is that she in fact had a massive hit to the head. Enough of one to cause very immediate, very nasty symptoms. Like vertigo. Nausea. Ataxia. Blinding pain. When she was attacked by the other woman she got hit in the temple. But if it had been hard enough to cause a closed brain injury, it would have cracked the temple. It's the thinnest part of the skull. So the question becomes, where did she get a head injury and no one notices her vomiting and falling over? At the the time of her attack. If I were a big guy, and I knew a fair bit of boxing (meaning I could aim my punch which I fully admit I cannot do) I would aim for the side of the jaw and ear. Break an ear bone, instantly incapacitate, unlikely to be discovered. And I don't think a weapon was used, because that would crack the skull. And that didn't happen. And what I fully admit is the most obvious answer, that her head hit the stairs, but stone steps would be sure to break the skull. I think her brain says it happened. I agree there's a lot to argue against it. Brain seems pretty sure. So that's whats fueling this. I've said before I have no problem with the idea of strangulation. She was partially asphyxiated to death when her windpipe was cut. I don't object to him doing it because he wanted to. I just think it's a lousy submission method when someone is like, three feet away on the other side of fence.
                              The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                              Comment


                              • Hi Errata,

                                Thanks for that. I've a few comments, which I'll insert below (put the square bracketed tags for /quote and quote in, to turn off/on quotes, respectively):

                                Originally posted by Errata View Post

                                Okay I've temporarily forgotten how to multiquote, so this will go top to bottom

                                1: I'm not sure how far bruising would have advanced, given she was exsanguinated moments later. Also if she was strangled after being hit that would affect it too. So I genuinely don't know what that bruising would look like. Her face was swollen, there was an abrasion on the right side, there were bruises of various ages. One was clearly from the fight, the bruise on the temple. But there was bruising on the jaw. Not having seen it... yeah.
                                Fair enough. Though as bruising reflects bleeding under the skin induced at the time of injury due to broken blood vessels, it should still be apparent I would think, but that's just a guess and I don't know how apparent, if at all, if the person is killed immediately afterwards. I believe a swollen face is also consistent with strangulation, at least I know that's been argued before, as is her protruding and swollen tongue (I think those were the signs that led Dr. Phillips to suggest her breathing was interfered with as well). I believe the bruising on the jaw was attributed to JtR holding her head while he cut her throat, and that was suggested to be the cause of the abrasions. That doesn't mean those explanations are correct, of course, but they do appear to be accounted for in both strangulation and punch accounts, that's all I'm suggesting.


                                2: Choking does not actually render someone silent. You have a better shot with that manually choking someone while pushing them up against a wall? Vocal cords rely as much on vertical movement and horizontal, so the only real barrier is the lack of air flow. Its really hard to completely cut that off. Can you quote Shakespeare? no. Its sounds a little like the Aflac duck having a stroke. It will wake no one, but if a dude is on the way back from the outhouse and is on the other side of the fence, he will hear it. It sounds a lot like someone being choked. To be fair, striking someone makes a sound too, but I think it is a sound that is easier to mistake for something else, or if it precedes a blow to the fence, it might get be experienced as one sound. Maybe.
                                Good point. However, and I hadn't stated this, sorry. I don't think she was attacked while Cadosh was in the yard the first time. Rather, it seems more probable that JtR would have been aware of Cadosch and waited until he went back inside. So while strangulation isn't completely silent, I doubt Cadosch was in a position to hear it when it did happen. His 3-4 minutes absence before returning would be enough time to render her unconscious at least. Mind you, he wouldn't hear a punch either.


                                3. I would expect Mrs. Chapman to have been easy to kill in a lot of ways, hard in others. She was five foot nothin. There are not a ton of men who could not overpower her based on that alone. Add in her fairly advanced tuberculosis, maybe syphilis...easy mark. On the other hand she was a stout woman. Moving her might have taken a bit. Also the more thick around the neck a person is, whether is be fat or muscle, the harder it is strangle them. Not impossible, but without completely shutting down the blood flow, that means fighting. And fighting next to a poorly maintained fence should have sounded like doors slamming.
                                Yes, this is a good point. It depends upon on how close to the fence they are at the time of course. I suppose if he strangled her, and while doing so takes her to the ground that would mean they're not fighting up against the fence per se, and the only bit she could strike would be low down near the ground, which would result in much less noise as the fence isn't going to rock back and forth as a result. It also aids JtR in strangling her as she's now against the ground as a hard surface. He could also bang her head against the ground, perhaps resulting in the brain injuries you're seeing?

                                [quote]

                                4: The only part of Cadosche's testimony that seems strange to me is the "No." I believe something hit the fence, I can think of a good half dozen explanations, that doesn't bother me. But the "no" is a bit weird. The transactional stuff should have been taken care of.

                                [/qoote]

                                Yah, it's hard to make much out of one word. I don't think it's her responding to JtR starting his attack, though. If it were, I think it would have had a note of fear in it, or be more of a yell, etc, and nothing in Cadosch's testimony leads to that conclusion. It just sounds like he heard people talking in the yard. While I don't want to over state this, as it is pure speculation, but I could see something like this happening. Chapman has taken JtR to the backyard thinking he's a client. Cadosch enters his yard, and JtR asks something like "Is it always this busy here?", or "Does he come out her often?", and she says "No" as she wants to reassure a client that all is well and they won't be disturbed. Cadosch goes to the loo, and back into his house. And I think around then is the most probable time for the attack to have started. When Cadosch returns 3-4 minutes later, Chapman is now on the ground, the initial attack completed, and JtR could be leaning over her to cut her throat, probably positioned around her legs, and given the awkward confines of the area, his shoulder bumps the fence and Cadosch hears that. JtR, however, now bent low, breathing heavy, and in whatever focused state of excitement he gets into at that point, is unaware of Cadosch's return.

                                But that's an awful lot of speculation built around one word, but most of it, to be fair, is based upon Cadosh hearing living people the first time, and hearing a bump the 2nd time he enters the yard, leaving 3-4 minutes between the last time living people were heard in the yard and when the fence bump was heard (which seems likely to have something to do with the attack sequence). Working the "no" in is really just to demonstrate it doesn't actually cause any problems. It also could have been in response to a completely inane question ("Did I see you at the pub an hour ago? - "no") type thing, as JtR waits out Cadosch.

                                But again, 3-4 minutes is enough time for either strangulation or a punch.


                                5: Mostly though, this is all based on the brain. Which was a train wreck given her disease and her attack, but the swelling and edema in the grey matter itself (as opposed to in the meninges which had loads of other problems). Given the lack of cracks in the skull, or projectiles, or rare genetic conditions that made it unlikely her age at death, thats a closed brain injury. My argument is that she in fact had a massive hit to the head. Enough of one to cause very immediate, very nasty symptoms. Like vertigo. Nausea. Ataxia. Blinding pain. When she was attacked by the other woman she got hit in the temple. But if it had been hard enough to cause a closed brain injury, it would have cracked the temple. It's the thinnest part of the skull. So the question becomes, where did she get a head injury and no one notices her vomiting and falling over? At the the time of her attack. If I were a big guy, and I knew a fair bit of boxing (meaning I could aim my punch which I fully admit I cannot do) I would aim for the side of the jaw and ear. Break an ear bone, instantly incapacitate, unlikely to be discovered. And I don't think a weapon was used, because that would crack the skull. And that didn't happen. And what I fully admit is the most obvious answer, that her head hit the stairs, but stone steps would be sure to break the skull. I think her brain says it happened. I agree there's a lot to argue against it. Brain seems pretty sure. So that's whats fueling this. I've said before I have no problem with the idea of strangulation. She was partially asphyxiated to death when her windpipe was cut. I don't object to him doing it because he wanted to. I just think it's a lousy submission method when someone is like, three feet away on the other side of fence.
                                Yah, as I say though, I don't think the attack, strangulation or a punch, happened until after Cadosh went back inside. Brain injury, I suppose, could reflect a punch or him slamming her head against the ground while strangling her though couldn't it?

                                I'm not ruling out your suggestion, though. It's got points worth considering. I'm wondering if it is possible to reconcile what you see as brain injury with an aspect of a strangulation attack, simply because the medical testimony at the time did specifically suggest that it appeared to be the case. I tend to be reluctant to throw out any evidence unless it is proven to be unreliable. I suspect in the end, we may find that neither strangulation with head bashing nor a strong punch can be entirely ruled out, which just widens the possibilities as to the sequence of events that comprised the attack.

                                Anyway, thanks for the things to think about.

                                - Jeff

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X