Chapman’s death.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

You yourself noted you could not tell if I was alive or dead based upon the feel of my cold and warm hand in post 1782, "True, Jeff: I could not determine whether you are alive or dead by feeling your hands for warmth after you have had them sunk into icy and hot water, respectively."

My hands would be warm / cold respectively, not due to whether I'm alive (so no ToD) or dead (in which case there is a ToD), but because of the influence of the environment my hands were in on the surface skin temperature that you feel. I'm sure we both agree on that. Now, you admit that you could not even determine if there was a ToD based upon feeling skin temperatures of my hands due to the influence of the environment. If you cannot even determine if there was a ToD, it therefore follows that one cannot determine the more precise value of what that ToD is.

- Jeff

And then THIS arrives, and I have to extend my visit one more time!

Yes, your hands would be telling a story about the environment they had been in, just like Chapmans body would do in Hanbury Street. You seem to have gotten tangled up in your own thinking, taking it as useful, which it is not. I have said a zillion times that I or anybody else cannot establish the precise TOD using either hand palpation or thermometer. But that does not equal that I cannot tell if a body has been long dead or if it is a case of recent death.
If the body is in a temperature of nine degrees, like Chapmans body was, and if it is quite warm to the touch, then I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not far removed in time, unless you have bee around with your bucket of hot water. Equally if the body is cold to the touch, I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not very close in time.
That is not to say that I can establish the exact temperatures by feeling the body, because that is impossible to do, although a trained medico will certainly be able to get close if death is not very far away in time.

Once again, extrapolating the fact that hand palpation is less safe than thermometer reading into a belief that a doctor cannot tell warm bodies from cold ones is not a clever thing to do. Just because we cannot kill tigers with fly-swatters, that does not mean that we cannot kill moths and flies with it. Although a method can be unreliable to a degree in some respects, that does not mean that the same method must ALWAYS be unreliable.

But I believe I have told you all of this before. It seems it is more a quetion of you putting your hands over your ears, chanting away.

Bye now.

[Michael W Richards]

Whose? The term was in the contemporary papers, Michael, like the Evening News of October 1 1888:

"In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes, and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats."

I don´t find that annoying. I find it factually interesting.

Yet not one person found any trace of any of that....hmm. Not in her system either. Don't be Packered Fish.

[Fisherman]

1858 to 1891 tin.

Surely.

Thanks.

Yes? And if it was around in 1858 to 1891, what is the reason for it NOT being around specifically in 1888?

[Fisherman]

Yet not one person found any trace of any of that....hmm. Not in her system either. Don't be Packered Fish.

Eh...what are you on about? Do you think they searched Liz´ system for candy?

[Fisherman]

Off. Now. Bye. Really!

[Joshua Rogan]

As mentioned before,the medication/breath freshener has been around for thousands of years.

Returns as a fad, usually marked by marketing and packaging.

Such was the case with Cachou Lajaunie,a formulation from 1880 which was marketed from 1890 in a small yellow tin designed by a watchmaker.

If anyone locates evidence of cachous being marketed in London 1888,I would be very,very interested.

This isn't quite what you asked for, but interesting none the less;

https://archive.org/stream/b19974760M0625/b19974760M0625_djvu.txt

"Every chemist in
this country is familiar with Hooper's cachous and pastilles, and in buying and selling them there is no trouble. It is different in France and its dependencies. For a long time these cachous would uot be admitted. The Customs officials in Algiers went the length of pouring the cachous into the sea, and sending the empty boxes on to their desti- nation. The officials in France absolutely prohibited them entering the country. "If I he cachous are in the Pharma- copoeia we shall pass them," paid they; and, as he could not get them in there by influence or as a new remedy, Mr. Parry saw the French Minister of Commerce, proved to him that cachous are not medicaments, and now they are allowed to pass."

[JeffHamm]

And then THIS arrives, and I have to extend my visit one more time!

Yes, your hands would be telling a story about the environment they had been in, just like Chapmans body would do in Hanbury Street. You seem to have gotten tangled up in your own thinking, taking it as useful, which it is not. I have said a zillion times that I or anybody else cannot establish the precise TOD using either hand palpation or thermometer. But that does not equal that I cannot tell if a body has been long dead or if it is a case of recent death.
If the body is in a temperature of nine degrees, like Chapmans body was, and if it is quite warm to the touch, then I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not far removed in time, unless you have bee around with your bucket of hot water.

And depending upon how fully clothed that body is. If the person has been out in the cold all night, with no gloves, their hands, for example, would be colder than say their chest, so where you feel will give different impressions. We do not know where on Annie Chapman's body Dr. Phillips touched (other than to detect greater warmth under her intestines - indicating she hadn't cooled completely in that area.

Equally if the body is cold to the touch, I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not very close in time.

Only if you factor in all the variables associated with how the surface of an object cools and know and record the important variables. Dr. Phillips himself, in his inquest testimony, points to this fact when he indictes it is important to note it was a cool morning. He is indicating that the body felt cool/cold but it was a cool/cold morning and that is important to consider.

That is not to say that I can establish the exact temperatures by feeling the body, because that is impossible to do, although a trained medico will certainly be able to get close if death is not very far away in time.

And you need the exact internal body temperature to be able to estimate ToD, and even then the estimated ToD will be given as a range of possible times.

Once again, extrapolating the fact that hand palpation is less safe than thermometer reading into a belief that a doctor cannot tell warm bodies from cold ones is not a clever thing to do.

No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious.

Just because we cannot kill tigers with fly-swatters, that does not mean that we cannot kill moths and flies with it. Although a method can be unreliable to a degree in some respects, that does not mean that the same method must ALWAYS be unreliable.

And to use your analogy, estimating the ToD is the tiger, and touching the body is the flyswatter.

But I believe I have told you all of this before. It seems it is more a quetion of you putting your hands over your ears, chanting away.

Bye now.

Yes, you've been consistent, as have I. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I'm not listening. If it does, then should I conclude you're not listening to me?

- Jeff

[DJA]

This isn't quite what you asked for, but interesting none the less;

https://archive.org/stream/b19974760...M0625_djvu.txt

"Every chemist in
this country is familiar with Hooper's cachous and pastilles, and in buying and selling them there is no trouble. It is different in France and its dependencies. For a long time these cachous would uot be admitted. The Customs officials in Algiers went the length of pouring the cachous into the sea, and sending the empty boxes on to their desti- nation. The officials in France absolutely prohibited them entering the country. "If I he cachous are in the Pharma- copoeia we shall pass them," paid they; and, as he could not get them in there by influence or as a new remedy, Mr. Parry saw the French Minister of Commerce, proved to him that cachous are not medicaments, and now they are allowed to pass."

Thanks for that. Good old Internet Archive.

Can you pick out the price?

They can't spell Asafoetida

[DJA]

Yes? And if it was around in 1858 to 1891, what is the reason for it NOT being around specifically in 1888?

Unfortunately,when I searched the Internet a decade ago,that firm came up.
Discounted them as they sold the silver cake topping "cachous". Kerfoots sold similar.

[Errata]

I love this thread... it’s like sifting through a factual train wreck.

[DJA]

Gulp.
Add Thomas Jackson brand

[DJA]

The Fugitive 20th Anniversary - Bus Train Crash - YouTube

[FISHY1118]

Yes there would.

Of course youd say that would you , you've totally butchered this thread with your one eyed ,bias ,waffling, continuous post,.

im pretty sure most would accept jack was right handed , all but you .

[FISHY1118]

Has it been proven that she was strangled? I’m not saying that she wasn’t of course but I wasn’t aware that this was a proven fact.
The Coroner: We will postpone that for the present. You can give your opinion as to how the death was caused.
Witness: From these appearances I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, and that death arose from syncope, or failure of the heart's action, in consequence of the loss of blood caused by the severance of the throat.

so lets agree at least she was rendered unconscious and placed on the ground before her throat was cut ?

If the “no” came from Annie then I’d tend toward the fact that she said it before she died, yes.

Again, so that being the case then the noise that codosch heard hit the fence, came six minutes ''after'' she was killed. i conclude therefor it was not Annie Chapmans dead body that hit the fence as she was dead on the ground long before codosch heard the noise, and to suggest that any part of her body somehow was pushed, moved, or any other way she could have hit the fence after death is just in the realms of impossibility.

Errata is suggesting that the killer knelt above Annie’s head to do the mutilations. Unlike you Errata isn’t claiming to be psychic. He/she is suggesting a possibility.
Unlike him i suggested that the killer cut Annie Chapman throat while he was on her right hand side and not her left, between her and the fence. i dont recall saying anything about the mutilation ........... yet.

so as there was no response from you herlock i will now say you have agreed with the above .... done.... now then

1. the '' no'' was right before the attack on Chapman

2. she was unconscious as she was placed on the ground

3. her throat was cut from left to right [ fact]

4. the killer did this on her right hand side ... NOT BETWEEN HER AND THE FENCE

5. NOW REMEMBER IM TALKING ABOUT THE CUTTING OF THE THROAT ONLY, NOT THE OTHER MUTILATIONS

6. Chapmans body could not have been the noise hitting the fence six minutes later after the ''no'' according to codosch, the killer did not move her , push her, kick her ,shove her, or anything else to make her hit the fence .

7 the killer could not have made the noise that codosch heard hit the fence while on chapmans right side cutting her throat .

8. it is well accepted that the killer was right handed


the killer couldn't or it would be a very unnatural act to hold Chapman chin and cut her throat from left to right if he was on her left hand side between her and the fence.

[JeffHamm]

"Fihserman: Once again, extrapolating the fact that hand palpation is less safe than thermometer reading into a belief that a doctor cannot tell warm bodies from cold ones is not a clever thing to do."

No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious.

Ooops, I left out a bit as I got distracted at the time when posting. This should read:

"No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious that the critical point of the discussion is whether or not the latter is useful for ToD estimations, and it is not."

Nobody, including myself, has ever suggested we cannot perceive that two things might differ in their relative temperatures. But I might as well argue that we know it's possible to tell the difference between cooked and raw potatoes so how much are fish on Tuesdays? Detecting a relative temperature difference is as meaningless as that statement with respect to basing an estimate for ToD. Even if the body felt warm, you have to factor in the clothing worn, and external temperature, and other things, as a body, well insulated, away from the breeze, in a warmer room, will not cool down as quickly as the same body in a colder room, and certainly not as fast to a body that has the clothes pulled up and exposes the abdomen and legs, and cuts open and removes flaps from the belly. That body will cool very rapidly to the touch; and a body with a larger surface area will cool at a different rate than a body with a smaller surface area, and so forth. And even if we knew all the important values, and the equations required to calculate the drop in temperature over time, you still need to know the starting temperature. You can't use the normal internal body temperature of 37C (+-1 roughly), as the surface of our skin is not at that temperature (feel your hand, then feel your table, they probably feel very similar in temperatures, but I doubt you've got your room at 37C).

Annie had been out in the streets since 1:30 am. Her hands and face at least would already feel colder to the touch than someone who was indoors. Seriously Fisherman, this isn't hard stuff, and no, it doesn't require being particularly clever either. It just requires a moment of stopping and thinking about what we're talking about; feeling a body and based upon that making an estimation of ToD. Once you consider the measurement taken, it becomes clear that the body surface temperature is so widely dependent upon things other than the ToD that the body surface temperature itself, let alone the more vague and variable "perceived warmth" metric, is just incapable of providing information useful towards making that estimation. It's an erroneous belief, held by the doctors in 1888, that it could be done, but we have learned since then they were wrong. Ergo, Dr. Phillips estimate is not worth considering.


- Jeff