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  • Off. Now. Bye. Really!

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    • Originally posted by DJA View Post

      As mentioned before,the medication/breath freshener has been around for thousands of years.

      Returns as a fad, usually marked by marketing and packaging.

      Such was the case with Cachou Lajaunie,a formulation from 1880 which was marketed from 1890 in a small yellow tin designed by a watchmaker.

      If anyone locates evidence of cachous being marketed in London 1888,I would be very,very interested.
      This isn't quite what you asked for, but interesting none the less;

      https://archive.org/stream/b19974760...M0625_djvu.txt

      "Every chemist in
      this country is familiar with Hooper's cachous and pastilles, and in buying and selling them there is no trouble. It is different in France and its dependencies. For a long time these cachous would uot be admitted. The Customs officials in Algiers went the length of pouring the cachous into the sea, and sending the empty boxes on to their desti- nation. The officials in France absolutely prohibited them entering the country. "If I he cachous are in the Pharma- copoeia we shall pass them," paid they; and, as he could not get them in there by influence or as a new remedy, Mr. Parry saw the French Minister of Commerce, proved to him that cachous are not medicaments, and now they are allowed to pass."

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      • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

        And then THIS arrives, and I have to extend my visit one more time!

        Yes, your hands would be telling a story about the environment they had been in, just like Chapmans body would do in Hanbury Street. You seem to have gotten tangled up in your own thinking, taking it as useful, which it is not. I have said a zillion times that I or anybody else cannot establish the precise TOD using either hand palpation or thermometer. But that does not equal that I cannot tell if a body has been long dead or if it is a case of recent death.
        If the body is in a temperature of nine degrees, like Chapmans body was, and if it is quite warm to the touch, then I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not far removed in time, unless you have bee around with your bucket of hot water.
        And depending upon how fully clothed that body is. If the person has been out in the cold all night, with no gloves, their hands, for example, would be colder than say their chest, so where you feel will give different impressions. We do not know where on Annie Chapman's body Dr. Phillips touched (other than to detect greater warmth under her intestines - indicating she hadn't cooled completely in that area.
        Equally if the body is cold to the touch, I can say with 100 per cent certainty that death is not very close in time.
        Only if you factor in all the variables associated with how the surface of an object cools and know and record the important variables. Dr. Phillips himself, in his inquest testimony, points to this fact when he indictes it is important to note it was a cool morning. He is indicating that the body felt cool/cold but it was a cool/cold morning and that is important to consider.
        That is not to say that I can establish the exact temperatures by feeling the body, because that is impossible to do, although a trained medico will certainly be able to get close if death is not very far away in time.
        And you need the exact internal body temperature to be able to estimate ToD, and even then the estimated ToD will be given as a range of possible times.
        Once again, extrapolating the fact that hand palpation is less safe than thermometer reading into a belief that a doctor cannot tell warm bodies from cold ones is not a clever thing to do.
        No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious.
        Just because we cannot kill tigers with fly-swatters, that does not mean that we cannot kill moths and flies with it. Although a method can be unreliable to a degree in some respects, that does not mean that the same method must ALWAYS be unreliable.
        And to use your analogy, estimating the ToD is the tiger, and touching the body is the flyswatter.
        But I believe I have told you all of this before. It seems it is more a quetion of you putting your hands over your ears, chanting away.

        Bye now.
        Yes, you've been consistent, as have I. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I'm not listening. If it does, then should I conclude you're not listening to me?

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

          This isn't quite what you asked for, but interesting none the less;

          https://archive.org/stream/b19974760...M0625_djvu.txt

          "Every chemist in
          this country is familiar with Hooper's cachous and pastilles, and in buying and selling them there is no trouble. It is different in France and its dependencies. For a long time these cachous would uot be admitted. The Customs officials in Algiers went the length of pouring the cachous into the sea, and sending the empty boxes on to their desti- nation. The officials in France absolutely prohibited them entering the country. "If I he cachous are in the Pharma- copoeia we shall pass them," paid they; and, as he could not get them in there by influence or as a new remedy, Mr. Parry saw the French Minister of Commerce, proved to him that cachous are not medicaments, and now they are allowed to pass."
          Thanks for that. Good old Internet Archive.

          Can you pick out the price?

          They can't spell Asafoetida
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

            Yes? And if it was around in 1858 to 1891, what is the reason for it NOT being around specifically in 1888?
            Unfortunately,when I searched the Internet a decade ago,that firm came up.
            Discounted them as they sold the silver cake topping "cachous". Kerfoots sold similar.
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • I love this thread... it’s like sifting through a factual train wreck.
              The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

              Comment


              • Gulp.
                Add Thomas Jackson brand
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • The Fugitive 20th Anniversary - Bus Train Crash - YouTube
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Yes there would.
                    Of course youd say that would you , you've totally butchered this thread with your one eyed ,bias ,waffling, continuous post,.

                    im pretty sure most would accept jack was right handed , all but you .

                    Comment



                    • Has it been proven that she was strangled? I’m not saying that she wasn’t of course but I wasn’t aware that this was a proven fact.
                      The Coroner: We will postpone that for the present. You can give your opinion as to how the death was caused.
                      Witness: From these appearances I am of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death, and that death arose from syncope, or failure of the heart's action, in consequence of the loss of blood caused by the severance of the throat.

                      so lets agree at least she was rendered unconscious and placed on the ground before her throat was cut ?

                      If the “no” came from Annie then I’d tend toward the fact that she said it before she died, yes.

                      Again, so that being the case then the noise that codosch heard hit the fence, came six minutes ''after'' she was killed. i conclude therefor it was not Annie Chapmans dead body that hit the fence as she was dead on the ground long before codosch heard the noise, and to suggest that any part of her body somehow was pushed, moved, or any other way she could have hit the fence after death is just in the realms of impossibility.

                      Errata is suggesting that the killer knelt above Annie’s head to do the mutilations. Unlike you Errata isn’t claiming to be psychic. He/she is suggesting a possibility.
                      Unlike him i suggested that the killer cut Annie Chapman throat while he was on her right hand side and not her left, between her and the fence. i dont recall saying anything about the mutilation ........... yet.


                      so as there was no response from you herlock i will now say you have agreed with the above .... done.... now then

                      1. the '' no'' was right before the attack on Chapman

                      2. she was unconscious as she was placed on the ground

                      3. her throat was cut from left to right [ fact]

                      4. the killer did this on her right hand side ... NOT BETWEEN HER AND THE FENCE

                      5. NOW REMEMBER IM TALKING ABOUT THE CUTTING OF THE THROAT ONLY, NOT THE OTHER MUTILATIONS

                      6. Chapmans body could not have been the noise hitting the fence six minutes later after the ''no'' according to codosch, the killer did not move her , push her, kick her ,shove her, or anything else to make her hit the fence .

                      7 the killer could not have made the noise that codosch heard hit the fence while on chapmans right side cutting her throat .

                      8. it is well accepted that the killer was right handed


                      the killer couldn't or it would be a very unnatural act to hold Chapman chin and cut her throat from left to right if he was on her left hand side between her and the fence.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        "Fihserman: Once again, extrapolating the fact that hand palpation is less safe than thermometer reading into a belief that a doctor cannot tell warm bodies from cold ones is not a clever thing to do."

                        No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious.
                        Ooops, I left out a bit as I got distracted at the time when posting. This should read:

                        "No, it's not particularly clever because it's manifestly obvious that the critical point of the discussion is whether or not the latter is useful for ToD estimations, and it is not."

                        Nobody, including myself, has ever suggested we cannot perceive that two things might differ in their relative temperatures. But I might as well argue that we know it's possible to tell the difference between cooked and raw potatoes so how much are fish on Tuesdays? Detecting a relative temperature difference is as meaningless as that statement with respect to basing an estimate for ToD. Even if the body felt warm, you have to factor in the clothing worn, and external temperature, and other things, as a body, well insulated, away from the breeze, in a warmer room, will not cool down as quickly as the same body in a colder room, and certainly not as fast to a body that has the clothes pulled up and exposes the abdomen and legs, and cuts open and removes flaps from the belly. That body will cool very rapidly to the touch; and a body with a larger surface area will cool at a different rate than a body with a smaller surface area, and so forth. And even if we knew all the important values, and the equations required to calculate the drop in temperature over time, you still need to know the starting temperature. You can't use the normal internal body temperature of 37C (+-1 roughly), as the surface of our skin is not at that temperature (feel your hand, then feel your table, they probably feel very similar in temperatures, but I doubt you've got your room at 37C).

                        Annie had been out in the streets since 1:30 am. Her hands and face at least would already feel colder to the touch than someone who was indoors. Seriously Fisherman, this isn't hard stuff, and no, it doesn't require being particularly clever either. It just requires a moment of stopping and thinking about what we're talking about; feeling a body and based upon that making an estimation of ToD. Once you consider the measurement taken, it becomes clear that the body surface temperature is so widely dependent upon things other than the ToD that the body surface temperature itself, let alone the more vague and variable "perceived warmth" metric, is just incapable of providing information useful towards making that estimation. It's an erroneous belief, held by the doctors in 1888, that it could be done, but we have learned since then they were wrong. Ergo, Dr. Phillips estimate is not worth considering.


                        - Jeff

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                        • According to Kori, the one who the Anti-Phillips always like to quote:



                          Table 4: Effect of Temperature in The Development of Rigor Mortis. Condition of body Time since death



                          1. If body feels warm and flaccid:
                          Dead less than 3 hours

                          2. If body feels warm and is stiff:
                          Dead from 3-8 hours

                          3. If body feels cold and is stiffc:
                          Dead from 8-36 hours

                          4. If body feels cold and flaccid:
                          Dead more than 36 hours


                          Chapman was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines and stiffness was evidently commencing, I would say option 2 or 3 is the case here, having Dr. Phillips saying at least 2 hours probably more is 100% in agreement with resent studies, and by giving a minimum of 2 hours he was very very generous indeed taking into account all other factors that hasten the onset the Rigor.

                          Notice how they say (feels cold), no thermometer?! what the .. they must have lost their minds ?!


                          And yet we have lovely posters who tell us that Dr. Phillips statement should be safely discarded, was wrong, not accurate, to throw it out of the window, and that it was better for him not to do any examination and not to give any TOD at all, because we have learned now that it was by luck, and luck only, everything that they managed rightly to estimate.




                          The Baron
                          Last edited by The Baron; 09-27-2019, 05:52 AM.

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                          • Today, 05:44 AM
                            According to Kori, the one who the Anti-Phillips always like to quote:



                            Table 4: Effect of Temperature in The Development of Rigor Mortis. Condition of body Time since death



                            1. If body feels warm and flaccid:
                            Dead less than 3 hours

                            2. If body feels warm and is stiff:
                            Dead from 3-8 hours

                            3. If body feels cold and is stiffc:
                            Dead from 8-36 hours

                            4. If body feels cold and flaccid:
                            Dead more than 36 hours


                            Chapman was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines and stiffness was evidently commencing, I would say option 2 or 3 is the case here, having Dr. Phillips saying at least 2 hours probably more is 100% in agreement with resent studies, and by giving a minimum of 2 hours he was very very generous indeed taking into account all other factors that hasten the onset the Rigor.

                            Notice how they say (feels cold), no thermometer?! what the .. they must have lost their minds ?!


                            And yet we have lovely posters who tell us that Dr. Phillips statement should be safely discarded, was wrong, not accurate, to throw it out of the window, and that it was better for him not to do any examination and not to give any TOD at all, because we have learned now that it was by luck, and luck only, everything that they managed rightly to estimate.



                            The Baron


                            Great post Baron, im getting a little sick and tired of posters claiming Dr Phillips was guessing and was lucky, and all the other rubbish when it came to his expert medical opinion with Chapman t/o/d

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                              According to Kori, the one who the Anti-Phillips always like to quote:



                              Table 4: Effect of Temperature in The Development of Rigor Mortis. Condition of body Time since death



                              1. If body feels warm and flaccid:
                              Dead less than 3 hours

                              2. If body feels warm and is stiff:
                              Dead from 3-8 hours

                              3. If body feels cold and is stiffc:
                              Dead from 8-36 hours

                              4. If body feels cold and flaccid:
                              Dead more than 36 hours


                              Chapman was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines and stiffness was evidently commencing, I would say option 2 or 3 is the case here, having Dr. Phillips saying at least 2 hours probably more is 100% in agreement with resent studies, and by giving a minimum of 2 hours he was very very generous indeed taking into account all other factors that hasten the onset the Rigor.

                              Notice how they say (feels cold), no thermometer?! what the .. they must have lost their minds ?!


                              And yet we have lovely posters who tell us that Dr. Phillips statement should be safely discarded, was wrong, not accurate, to throw it out of the window, and that it was better for him not to do any examination and not to give any TOD at all, because we have learned now that it was by luck, and luck only, everything that they managed rightly to estimate.




                              The Baron
                              Hi The Baron,

                              Ok, let's use that table the way you want us to. Dr. Phillips reports she felt cold and was not stiff. Dr. Phillips indicates that rigor was commencing, which is not stiff (that would be complete rigor) that must mean you're saying she was therefore dead in the backyard for more than 36 hours. But later that day, Dr. Phillips reports rigor was now marked, so she was "cold and flacid", putting her at 36 hours incorrectly.

                              Why? Because the warm/cold touch test doesn't work for bodies found outside in the cold.

                              The table is based upon bodies found clothed, indoors, at room temperature, and not cut open and mutilated. Under those conditions, a body will cool more slowly becaues it's not in a cold environment, with breezes, and skin exposed, etc. The table is about the progression of rigor, where then, you really just need to differentiate between whether the body is flacid because rigor has not started, or is only just starting, or if it is flacid because they've been there long enough that rigor has passed. Under those circumstances, the touch test is enough information to use as a rule of thumb. But once the body is outside, in the cold, the warm/cold bit can't be used, and you have to wait to see if rigor starts up and gets stronger or weakens/never develops after discovery, and use that to determine if the body was found early or late. So basically, she was flacid, at the start of rigor, so death is estimated as within the previous 3 hours. Covering both time windows.

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                                Normally, a body will feel cold to the touch after 4-6 hours. That means that if it falls from 36 degrees, it will fall by 3.2 - 4.8 degrees, approximately, reaching around 31-32 degrees. During the first three hours after death, medicos will typically be able to pick up some degree of warmth. And neither Phillips nor I said that Chapman felt ice cold, John - both of us knew/know that there was a little warmth left under the intestines.

                                Overall, your case is not a useful one. Chapman would not have grown cold in an hour only, we just don´t do that.
                                Christer,

                                Could you please cite a source for your proposition that body temperature would need to drop to as low as 31-32 degrees to be "cold to the touch"?


                                I have already demonstrated how Champan's body temperature could have fallen below 35 degrees (a hypothethermic state for a live person) after an hour, and that's without taking into consideration numerous environmental factors which could accelerate cooling rates: surface the body was on, partially clothed, body size, air movements and, per the Forensic Science Regulator, " The potential impact of injuries/wounds to the body (e.g large abdominal lacerations.)"
                                Last edited by John G; 09-27-2019, 07:28 AM.

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