Torso Murders

[Pierre]

Pick a part and I may oblige.

Thanks, Fisherman. This is the part:

"Both women also had their abdomens opened up from ribcage to pubes, and both women had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps that were subsequently discarded."

Kind regards, Pierre

[Fisherman]

Thanks, Fisherman. This is the part:

"Both women also had their abdomens opened up from ribcage to pubes, and both women had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps that were subsequently discarded."

Kind regards, Pierre

Wow. Itīs been a while. I donīt even remember what you asked for...?

And which are the women? Chapman and Jackson, I gather? Or is it Jackson and Kelly?

It would be nice if you were a wee bit quicker on the trigger.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Errata, spot on! Thanks you for your very sensible input into this.

In addition to abortion Dr Biggs mentions "other 'back street' obstetric procedures" which would necessitate the abdomen being opened up

with regards to your other request I am not being pedantic but you have to remember Dr Biggs is not a ripperologist so he knows almost nothing other than what he has read by way of my correspondence with him.

That is why I asked you to formulate proper questions. If you dont want to do that then I will do so, but I would sooner you do it to avoid all the flak that might flow should the answers not be to your liking.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John Wheat]

In addition to abortion Dr Biggs mentions "other 'back street' obstetric procedures" which would necessitate the abdomen being opened up

with regards to your other request I am not being pedantic but you have to remember Dr Biggs is not a ripperologist so he knows almost nothing other than what he has read by way of my correspondence with him.

That is why I asked you to formulate proper questions. If you dont want to do that then I will do so, but I would sooner you do it to avoid all the flak that might flow should the answers not be to your liking.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

To Trevor

It would seem some Ripperologists don't know what there talking about either. Not mentioning any names.

Cheers John

[Pierre]

Wow. Itīs been a while. I donīt even remember what you asked for...?

And which are the women? Chapman and Jackson, I gather? Or is it Jackson and Kelly?

It would be nice if you were a wee bit quicker on the trigger.

Sorry, Fisherman. Yes, Chapman and Jackson.

Regards, Pierre

[Debra A]

In addition to abortion Dr Biggs mentions "other 'back street' obstetric procedures" which would necessitate the abdomen being opened up

with regards to your other request I am not being pedantic but you have to remember Dr Biggs is not a ripperologist so he knows almost nothing other than what he has read by way of my correspondence with him.

That is why I asked you to formulate proper questions. If you dont want to do that then I will do so, but I would sooner you do it to avoid all the flak that might flow should the answers not be to your liking.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes he does mention 'other back street obstertric practices' but I have no clue what Dr Biggs has in mind there to be honest. Doctors cost money, Elizabeth was destitute and homeless never mind pay for 'obstertric practices' other than an attempt at abortion and why would 'other obstetric practices' necessitate going back street as if they were illegal practices when they weren't, and why would they necessitate the opening of the abdomen from the chest to the pubes? That could be another question if you want to put that to him as well, Trevor?

I know Dr Biggs has no knowledge of the case, hence he assumed MJK's murser was a dismemberment murder when you asked about her mutilations compared to Elizabeth Jacksons. I have outlined exactly what I would love him to comment on in both posts now and they must be understandable as Errata got the point I was making about Bond's conclusions and commented on the validity of his observations straight away.
I am almost certain that Dr Biggs comprehension skills are excellent and he will know what I am wanting to know if you just copy the post I mentioned in its entirety.
Maybe if there's anyone else following this who doesn't think Dr Biggs would be able to make sense of what I wrote and give an answer on the validity of Bond's observations that no abortion had been performed, based on what I've said, then if they let me know I will try and formulate a direct question, rather than have you do it.

[Trevor Marriott]

I didn't provide him with the inquest information at all just the forensic material I passed to you that doesn't mention anything about what Dr Bond's final conclusion was. My post is not all over the place, it a description of what Dr Bond said he based his conclusion that no abortion had been performed on. It's no good just asking a question like 'could this pregnant woman's death be as the result of an abortion' without mentioning what Dr Bond concluded and why. That way Dr Biggs can assess whether or not Dr Bond would have been able to conclude there was no abortion performed from what he observed, or if it was guesswork as you and John G are always suggesting with these Victorian doctors opinions.
I would prefer that you just copy and paste my whole post for Dr Biggs to comment on, rather than ask a question if that's okay please .The whole reason none of our specific questions are ever answered is because of the way they are simplified without background information in your emails.

And I would also like to know what he thinks of the expert Patricia Cornwall used to back her up in saying the Whitehall torso had been dead 5 to 6 weeks going by the stage of decomposition (as Bond said) given that Dr Biggs said it is impossible to determine this by looking at the state of the remains. The head of UT Forensic School must surely even satisfy John G enough to be classed as an expert! So why the difference in opinions over this. It would be interesting to know.

I re read some of Dr Biggs comments with regards to The Whitehall Torso and the question of the post mortem interval meaning time of death. He says in reply to Bonds 2 months estimate

"I would be cautious about accepting their estimation of a 2 month post mortem interval. Such things are highly variable and a much wider range of dates should be considered"

With regards to Patricia Cornwell expert, I cannot see how anyone 127 years later can give an accurate time of death simply by being told the body was infested with maggots. In today's world of forensics they probably could.

So were does this now take you, what did you set out to prove or disprove?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

With regards to Patricia Cornwell expert, I cannot see how anyone 127 years later can give an accurate time of death simply by being told the body was infested with maggots. In today's world of forensics they probably could.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

Do bodies decay differently now then they did 127 years ago?

[Debra A]

I re read some of Dr Biggs comments with regards to The Whitehall Torso and the question of the post mortem interval meaning time of death. He says in reply to Bonds 2 months estimate

"I would be cautious about accepting their estimation of a 2 month post mortem interval. Such things are highly variable and a much wider range of dates should be considered"

With regards to Patricia Cornwell expert, I cannot see how anyone 127 years later can give an accurate time of death simply by being told the body was infested with maggots. In today's world of forensics they probably could.

So were does this now take you, what did you set out to prove or disprove?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I was asking why two obvious experts would have differing views on this aspect.
The Victorian doctors did give a range of six to eight weeks for the time of death, you make it sound like they gave an exact day and time!

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

Do bodies decay differently now then they did 127 years ago?

No but experts who study entomolgy are used to determine the life span of the maggots and insects, they can tell how long a body has been in situe by the life span of the maggot or insect etc.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

No but experts who study entomolgy are used to determine the life span of the maggots and insects, they can tell how long a body has been in situe by the life span of the maggot or insect etc.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Would you not agree that the maggots are present only during a certain stage of the decay process? Also, the state of putrefaction gives a clue as to date of death?

[jerryd]

-Warning- Graphic Pictures contained in this link.

The basics of body farm stages of decomposition. Other websites quote basically the same time frames. Gives an idea of what we are talking about in terms of weeks.

http://factorialist.com/body-farms-time-of-death/

[Trevor Marriott]

I was asking why two obvious experts would have differing views on this aspect.
The Victorian doctors did give a range of six to eight weeks for the time of death, you make it sound like they gave an exact day and time!

No one back then can give an exact time, six to eight weeks could be right, but Dr Biggs says it could be more, this is something that will never be conclusively proved. Particia Cornwells expert was obviously guessing he had nothing to work with to give any accurate opinion. I hope this no clarifies this issue with you ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Would you not agree that the maggots are present only during a certain stage of the decay process? Also, the state of putrefaction gives a clue as to date of death?

All of this modern approach to determine time of death is dependant on the body,the atmosphere the temperature etc and then it is not completely accurate to the day.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

All of this modern approach to determine time of death is dependant on the body,the atmosphere the temperature etc and then it is not completely accurate to the day.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

and on that note, this thread comes to an ignomious thud.