Torso Murders

[harry]

Fisherman,
It would be coincidence even,if the same killer repeated exactly,what you claims to have been done.
So lets look at your supposition.A man found standing beside a body, a woman with an injury to the head,and victims with mutilations ,add up to one serial killer.What about evidence that,to the exclusion of all others,,convicts Cross?

[harry]

John,
I didn't suggest a woman was distributing the body parts,only that a woman could,physically that is,and that fact shouldn't be overlooked. Women kill, and women mutilate,and women dismember.Nothing should be taken for granted.

[Fisherman]

Sorry, Fisherman. Yes, Chapman and Jackson.

Regards, Pierre

.... and what do we want to know about them?

[Fisherman]

Fisherman,
It would be coincidence even,if the same killer repeated exactly,what you claims to have been done.
So lets look at your supposition.A man found standing beside a body, a woman with an injury to the head,and victims with mutilations ,add up to one serial killer.What about evidence that,to the exclusion of all others,,convicts Cross?

What I "claim" to have been done? The matters I mentioned - the flaps, the cuts from ribs to pubes, the taking out of organs of both sexual and non-sexual origin etcetera, are all in evidence.
Could it be a coincidence that they are present in both men´s work, that is what I am asking.
Then again, since you actually actively choose to believe that the two blows to the temple is less credible than the victim falling on two implements at the same time, it may be superfluous of me to ask...

[Trevor Marriott]

What I "claim" to have been done? The matters I mentioned - the flaps, the cuts from ribs to pubes, the taking out of organs of both sexual and non-sexual origin etcetera, are all in evidence.
Could it be a coincidence that they are present in both men´s work, that is what I am asking.
Then again, since you actually actively choose to believe that the two blows to the temple is less credible than the victim falling on two implements at the same time, it may be superfluous of me to ask...

Dr Biggs was asked to compare the case of both Kelly and Jackson he says

"In summary, I don't think (from what I have read) that there are sufficient similarities between the cases to conclude that the same 'killer' dismembered the bodies"

But of course Christer you are a far more experienced medical expert to conclude otherwise !!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

No one back then can give an exact time, six to eight weeks could be right, but Dr Biggs says it could be more, this is something that will never be conclusively proved. Particia Cornwells expert was obviously guessing he had nothing to work with to give any accurate opinion. I hope this no clarifies this issue with you ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But the Victorian doctors who estimated the death date range only suggested it to aid in the investigation. The way you go on you make it sound like they gave a precise date and a time that would have been a guess when in fact they worked on the observation on rates of decay also and provided a range. That the death may have been slightly outside that date range isn't relevant unless someone is trying to base a theory around that.

[Debra A]

Dr Biggs was asked to compare the case of both Kelly and Jackson he says

"In summary, I don't think (from what I have read) that there are sufficient similarities between the cases to conclude that the same 'killer' dismembered the bodies"

But of course Christer you are a far more experienced medical expert to conclude otherwise !!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't understand how that is a comparison between MJK and Elizabeth Jackson when Kelly was not dismembered. It's a generalisation about dismemberment murders looking similar as far as I can see.

[Trevor Marriott]

But the Victorian doctors who estimated the death date range only suggested it to aid in the investigation. The way you go on you make it sound like they gave a precise date and a time that would have been a guess when in fact they worked on the observation on rates of decay also and provided a range. That the death may have been slightly outside that date range isn't relevant unless someone is trying to base a theory around that.

So what theory are you trying to base the time of death on ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't understand how that is a comparison between MJK and Elizabeth Jackson when Kelly was not dismembered. It's a generalisation about dismemberment murders looking similar as far as I can see.

I was asked to provide Dr Biggs with details of both for comparison purposes to see if there were any which might link them together bearing in mind Dr Christer is of the opinion they were the work of the same person.

Clearly you know, I know and the world and his brother knows they were not, but try telling that to Dr Christer.

I have re submitted to Dr Biggs the new information on Jackson and also details of the purported anal plug which i have my own views on at this time but will hold them back.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[harry]

Fisherman,
I haven't suggested a victim fell on anything.All I have outlined is that certain implements might suggest two blows,when only one was suffered.
As to coincidence,similarities are present on many occasions,in different crimes.Two victims shot in the back of the head by the same type of weapon,shows similarities,even if shot by different people.What has that got to do with the torso mysteries.None really,but it answers your question.

[Debra A]

So what theory are you trying to base the time of death on ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If you ever bothered to read and understand what individuals are posting you'd see that the only time I have ever discussed the date of death as being estimated to be six to eight weeks previously has been when discussing the length of the time the torso could have been in the vault it was found in in relation to the leg also found in the same vault. It doesn't matter a jot to me what the date of death was, if you think you've seen me suggest otherwise then it's purely in your imagination.
My concern is that the skills of the Victorians doctors are being rubbished just for the sake of it on every aspect of their work. It seems to me that even modern experts don't always agree definitely on what exactly can be determined and how accurately.

[Debra A]

I was asked to provide Dr Biggs with details of both for comparison purposes to see if there were any which might link them together bearing in mind Dr Christer is of the opinion they were the work of the same person.

Clearly you know, I know and the world and his brother knows they were not, but try telling that to Dr Christer.

I have re submitted to Dr Biggs the new information on Jackson and also details of the purported anal plug which i have my own views on at this time but will hold them back.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There was no direct comparison made by Dr Biggs in that statement you provided. He simply repeats that two bodies being dismembered will look similar. Christer has a specific question. The context to that specific question is that for many years it has been suggested that the removal of flaps of skin and tissue to access the abdominal cavity links some of the Whitechapel cases to one killer and I made the observation that the only other time we see mention of absolute removal of definite flaps of skin, taken in sections from the abdomen in any other case outside of the Whitechapel murders is in the case of Elizabeth Jackson. So, I proposed that this was either a link or the way to discount that theory.
There's also the fact that Elizabeth Jackson was a young unfortunate and was homeless and destitute just like the Whitechapel victims. She was seen only a couple of days before her remains began being spotted in the Thames and foreshores and in Battersea Park. Police at the time believed her remains were thrown from Battersea Bridge (even the park find) and unlike most other historical crimes of this sort, there had been no attempt at other methods of disposal prior to dumping. There was no burning, boiling or chemical treatment of the bodies and this is in common with the other three cases 87-89. Historically they have some unique qualities as torso murders go. You say you have asked Dr Biggs about this comparison of flesh removed in section from the abdomen but the question and answers you've provided don't reflect that.

[Debra A]

I have re submitted to Dr Biggs the new information on Jackson and also details of the purported anal plug which i have my own views on at this time but will hold them back.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

New information? Do you mean the old information that I kept on telling you about but you chose to ignore every time?

I did say to you a while back that if you had bothered to tell me you were going to publish Dr Biggs comments on the torso cases I would have provided him with much more information to base his observations on, rather than the brief notes I provided you with, thinking you were going to ask a casual question or two.

[Trevor Marriott]

New information? Do you mean the old information that I kept on telling you about but you chose to ignore every time?

I did say to you a while back that if you had bothered to tell me you were going to publish Dr Biggs comments on the torso cases I would have provided him with much more information to base his observations on, rather than the brief notes I provided you with, thinking you were going to ask a casual question or two.

Debra
The questions that needed to be asked have been asked, whether you like or accept those and the answers is a matter for you.

With you in mind, further questions and information has been provided to Dr Biggs. I like you will await his answers then I hope all of this can be put to bed once and for all and we can get back to calling these torsos the Thames Torso Mysteries instead of all this rubbish about a serial killer being at work.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Debra
The questions that needed to be asked have been asked, whether you like or accept those and the answers is a matter for you.

With you in mind, further questions and information has been provided to Dr Biggs. I like you will await his answers then I hope all of this can be put to bed once and for all and we can get back to calling these torsos the Thamesa Torso Mysteries instead of all this rubbish about a serial killer being at work.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But Trevor-even if you call them mysteries people will still have the right to discuss them in terms of a series of murders, you can't dictate what conversations people have when they use facts and it is a fact, like it or not, that most of your suggestions on the torso cases can also be dismissed individually when applied to each case.
You yourself make money selling tickets to a show where you claim there was no mutilating, organ stealing serial killer operating in 1888 despite there being a large amount of evidence that there was. Why do you think those who propose a suspect or scenarios have any less right than you to promote that theory?