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  • Torso Murders

    Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?

  • #2
    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
    Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?
    yeah-jack the ripper.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      yeah-jack the ripper.
      Well my own belief is that Jack and The Torso Killer were two very different killers. However some Ripper suspects are in my opinion more likely to be The Torso Killer than the Ripper. For example Wentworth Bellsmith who moved into Penge London in1873 shortly before the first possible Torso Murder and moved out of London shortly after the 1889 murder. It has also struck me how the myths about Jack are often to my mind more likely to fit who was the Torso Killer than Jack eg the top hated toff. The evidence would suggest the Torso Killer had money and because of this was able to move around. Also whoever was the Lodger possibly Wentworth Bellsmith or even possibly Francis Tumblety has always struck me as more likely to be The Torso Killer than Jack. The mysterious rich North American. Who takes up a Lodging, acts oddly, supposedly has a bloodstained shirt and then disappears. I've always thought Jack would be likely to try to get as little blood on him as possible and also any witnesses that may have seen Jack tend to describe someone with overcoats or jackets on.

      Cheers John

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
        Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?
        How many murders are you suggesting there were?

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
          Well my own belief is that Jack and The Torso Killer were two very different killers. However some Ripper suspects are in my opinion more likely to be The Torso Killer than the Ripper. For example Wentworth Bellsmith who moved into Penge London in1873 shortly before the first possible Torso Murder and moved out of London shortly after the 1889 murder. It has also struck me how the myths about Jack are often to my mind more likely to fit who was the Torso Killer than Jack eg the top hated toff. The evidence would suggest the Torso Killer had money and because of this was able to move around. Also whoever was the Lodger possibly Wentworth Bellsmith or even possibly Francis Tumblety has always struck me as more likely to be The Torso Killer than Jack. The mysterious rich North American. Who takes up a Lodging, acts oddly, supposedly has a bloodstained shirt and then disappears. I've always thought Jack would be likely to try to get as little blood on him as possible and also any witnesses that may have seen Jack tend to describe someone with overcoats or jackets on.

          Cheers John
          Hi John
          Very interesting. Thanks!

          The reason why I said the ripper is the more I learn about the torso cases and the recent research done, the more I see the similarities:

          same victimology
          same general location
          same general time frame
          Post mortem mutilation
          abdomens targeted/mutilated
          knife, cutting instrument used
          unsolved
          both involve a series
          remains possibly displayed, but not definitely concealed
          probable ruse involved to get victims where he wanted them

          But the main thing IMHO, as shown by recent research by Debra Arif and others, is the uncanny similarity between how the flaps of skin were removed from the abdomens of Elizabeth Jackson and Mary Kelly (and also chapman).

          Also, apparent difference in MO-dismemberment-could just be that the torso victims were when he could bring the victims to a private place and the ripper victims were when he could not, and had to kill on the streets. And dismemberment was mainly for ease in disposal and removal.

          as of now, IMHO I see a slightly better than 50/50 chance they were the same killer.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
            Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?
            Yes. I do.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Hi John
              Very interesting. Thanks!

              The reason why I said the ripper is the more I learn about the torso cases and the recent research done, the more I see the similarities:

              same victimology
              same general location
              same general time frame
              Post mortem mutilation
              abdomens targeted/mutilated
              knife, cutting instrument used
              unsolved
              both involve a series
              remains possibly displayed, but not definitely concealed
              probable ruse involved to get victims where he wanted them

              But the main thing IMHO, as shown by recent research by Debra Arif and others, is the uncanny similarity between how the flaps of skin were removed from the abdomens of Elizabeth Jackson and Mary Kelly (and also chapman).

              Also, apparent difference in MO-dismemberment-could just be that the torso victims were when he could bring the victims to a private place and the ripper victims were when he could not, and had to kill on the streets. And dismemberment was mainly for ease in disposal and removal.

              as of now, IMHO I see a slightly better than 50/50 chance they were the same killer.
              Hi Abby,

              I'm afraid I would disagree with just about all of this. Victimology? Only one torso victim was identified.

              General location? We have no idea where the torso victims were abducted from and body parts were scattered all over London.

              General time frame? Some torso murders date back to the early 1870s.

              Post mortem mutilation/ abdomen targeted? This only applies to the Pinchin Street Torso, as far as I'm aware, where the mutilations were no where near as extensive as the Whitechapel victims and, according to Dr Phillips, were carried out for purposes of disposal of the body. Moreover, no abdominal organs were removed, so different objective implies different killer.

              Knife cutting instrument used? How else could a body be dismembered in the late nineteenth century? Note: the chainsaw hadn't been invented.

              Unsolved? Agreed.

              Both involved a series? How do you know? Where's the proof the torso victims were murdered?

              Probable ruse? Well, at the risk of sounding like Pierre, can you provide source material for this assertion?

              Debra Arif? Yes, I have the utmost respect for Debra. However, as I'm sure she'd acknowledge, she is not, as far as I'm aware, a medical expert, and therefore unqualified to give informative opinion in this area.

              The others? Please cite their relevant medical qualifications.
              Last edited by John G; 05-11-2016, 11:16 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by John G View Post
                Hi Abby,

                I'm afraid I would disagree with just about all of this. Victimology? Only one torso victim was identified.

                General location? We have no idea where the torso victims were abducted from and body parts were scattered all over London.

                General time frame? Some torso murders date back to the early 1870s.

                Post mortem mutilation/ abdomen targeted? This only applies to the Pinchin Street Torso, as far as I'm aware, where the mutilations were no where near as extensive as the Whitechapel victims and, according to Dr Phillips, were carried out for purposes of disposal of the body. Moreover, no abdominal organs were removed, so different objective implies different killer.

                Knife cutting instrument used? How else could a body be doing smembered
                To John G

                At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered. If an axe or other cutting instrument other than a knife could be proven to have been used to dismember the body then it would be even less likely Jack was also The Torso Killer.

                Cheers John
                Last edited by John Wheat; 05-11-2016, 11:11 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                  How many murders are you suggesting there were?

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  Several.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    Yes. I do.
                    I'm going to take a wild guess here. Is it Lechemere by any chance? Also, where was his dismemberment site? What mode of transportation did he use to transport the remains of his victims all over London? Where did he store the bodies?
                    Last edited by John G; 05-11-2016, 11:24 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                      To John G

                      At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered.

                      Cheers John
                      A finetoothed saw and a sharp knife was suggested by the medicos.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                        To John G

                        At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered.

                        Cheers John
                        Hi John,

                        Yes, I agree. But obviously not a chainsaw!
                        Last edited by John G; 05-11-2016, 11:23 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          A finetoothed saw and a sharp knife was suggested by the medicos.
                          To Fisherman

                          It wouldn't surprise me if The Torso Killer used a finetoothed saw and a sharp knife to dismember the bodies.

                          Cheers John

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                            To Fisherman

                            It wouldn't surprise me if The Torso Killer used a finetoothed saw and a sharp knife to dismember the bodies.

                            Cheers John
                            It didnīt surprise the medicos either. So I think we can discard the notion that we donīt know which instruments were used!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              It didnīt surprise the medicos either. So I think we can discard the notion that we donīt know which instruments were used!
                              It depends how much reliance you place on the opinion of Victorian GPs! I mean, here's a basic question asked by Dr Biggs about Liz Jackson: "Are the fragments definitely the same individual?"
                              Last edited by John G; 05-11-2016, 11:58 AM.

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