Torso Murders

[Abby Normal]

That applies to all of the torso murders - they were much more "clean" killings. Anyhow, the torso killer was the first one to cut an abdomen from breastbone to pubes, so he did not emulate what the Ripper did. If anything, it was the other way around.

Or they were the same man. Which I really think we must accept that they probably were.

hey fish
sent you a PM

[Columbo]

Very interesting thread. I'm not up on these as much as I should be. Thanks to everyone for the info.

Columbo

[Fisherman]

hey fish
sent you a PM

Hi Abby - sent you an answer!

[John Wheat]

That applies to all of the torso murders - they were much more "clean" killings. Anyhow, the torso killer was the first one to cut an abdomen from breastbone to pubes, so he did not emulate what the Ripper did. If anything, it was the other way around.

Or they were the same man. Which I really think we must accept that they probably were.

To Fisherman

Yes they were much more clean killings which makes me think they were two separate killers.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Yes, but the uterus is targetted by a number of killers (Chikatilo springs to mind, f ex), while precise and exact dismemberment is a very uncommon thing. I would want to know how the Paris torso compares in that division.

To Fisherman

I'd be interested to know more about the Paris Torso and how precise and exact the dismemberment was. Perhaps Debra A or someone else on the site will have some knowledge about the Paris Torso?

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

To Fisherman

Yes they were much more clean killings which makes me think they were two separate killers.

Cheers John

Killers can employ very different methods, like f ex Kürten, as I noted before. The dissimilarities must to my mind stand back to the similarities i totally extraordinary matters.

The odds that there will be two serialists who take an interest in cutting away abdominal walls in large flaps are sky high. The same goes for excising organs that are both sexually and non-sexually oriented.

That is not one but two extremely odd matters, and that clinches the matter in my eyes.

[Errata]

I think that a guy who sends a fetus down the Thames in a jar is a guy having fun with his work, so to speak. It requires a sense of humor, and that's not something present in the Ripper killings. So that is odd.

[Fisherman]

To Fisherman

I'd be interested to know more about the Paris Torso and how precise and exact the dismemberment was. Perhaps Debra A or someone else on the site will have some knowledge about the Paris Torso?

Cheers John

If Michael Gordon is to be trusted - and that varies - the Paris dismemberment was crude.

And if it was, Paris does not belong to the series, the way I see it.

[Fisherman]

I think that a guy who sends a fetus down the Thames in a jar is a guy having fun with his work, so to speak. It requires a sense of humor, and that's not something present in the Ripper killings. So that is odd.

Perhaps so. But the fetus in the jar was apparently not Jacksons fetus, and so the Torso killer was not responsible for it.
There are other examples of a black humour on account of the Torso man, however.

[Pierre]

Perhaps so. But the fetus in the jar was apparently not Jacksons fetus, and so the Torso killer was not responsible for it.
There are other examples of a black humour on account of the Torso man, however.

All of this is so silly that I do not have any comments on it. Or perhaps I do: the speculations of ripperology transferred to the question of various dismemberment murders.

Regards, Pierre

[Fisherman]

All of this is so silly that I do not have any comments on it. Or perhaps I do: the speculations of ripperology transferred to the question of various dismemberment murders.

Regards, Pierre

If you donīt have any comments, how come you comment...? Talking about silly, I mean?

[Fisherman]

When you have read up on the material you will be better fit to have a view, Pierre. Along the way, you may pick up on how Debra Arif is anything but negative to making the assumption that the Torso killer may have been identical with the Ripper.
Now, I donīt know if you are aware of who Debra Arif is - it may be something you need to read up on too. If you cannot make the effort, I am only too happy to inform you that she is arguably the top authority on the Torso murders.

That, Pierre, is how silly it is to identify the Torso killer with the Ripper.

Admittedly, Debra is not the academic hot-shot historian you are. But that is just one of the things that tell you apart. Another is how she is extremely familiarized with the case, whereas - as far as I can tell - you are not.

Goodnight, Pierre.

[Abby Normal]

When you have read up on the material you will be better fit to have a view, Pierre. Along the way, you may pick up on how Debra Arif is anything but negative to making the assumption that the Torso killer may have been identical with the Ripper.
Now, I donīt know if you are aware of who Debra Arif is - it may be something you need to read up on too. If you cannot make the effort, I am only too happy to inform you that she is arguably the top authority on the Torso murders.

That, Pierre, is how silly it is to identify the Torso killer with the Ripper.

Admittedly, Debra is not the academic hot-shot historian you are. But that is just one of the things that tell you apart. Another is how she is extremely familiarized with the case, whereas - as far as I can tell - you are not.

Goodnight, Pierre.

whats really silly is that pierre has repeatedly said in the past that he believes the ripper , and not only that, but his suspect for the ripper, was also responsible for the torso killings-so not sure what he is trying to say but that's par for the course with him.

[Errata]

Perhaps so. But the fetus in the jar was apparently not Jacksons fetus, and so the Torso killer was not responsible for it.
There are other examples of a black humour on account of the Torso man, however.

It may have been. It's one of those things where you sort of have to decide whether or not there was a developmental discrepancy with the fetus, or theres a whole other missing but unpickled fetus running around somewhere.

Really either way is just unlikely, but one has to be true.

It's just surreal. But the Ripper murders, zero humor. One might even say that they are devoid of any strong emotion or influence. Little rage, little panic, little anything.

[Robert St Devil]

This man can sew, Mr. Crawford!

Just me, speculating again...

TRAIN OF THOUGHT.

In the Morning Advertiser [9oct88], Mr. Charles A Hebbert stated this:

With regard to the piece of paper, which was stained, he had since made inquiries and found it was a piece of the Echo of the 24th August last. He found it on the ground where the trunk had been taken from. With regard to the material in which the trunk was wrapped, he had had inquiry made, and found it was broché satin cloth, of Bradford manufacture, but of old pattern, probably three years. It had a flounce six inches deep at the bottom.

* Casebook doesn't list this Echo new report under PRESS REPORTS; however, regarding the case, the news for that day was the Martha Tabram inquest.

I had to look up what broche satin cloth is; 'fancy' might be a fair assessment. Too fancy? (shrugs) However, one of the themes that grabs my eye in this case is the fabric aspect - silk kerchiefs, velvet cloth, new bonnets, shabby clothes worn well, astrakhan, buttons placed by the victims, neatly-tied parcels (tailor-like?), etc. It reminded me of the Hanbury district where Ann Chapman was measured, which brought up these questions for me:

1. Was Hanbury St. a Jewish fabric/tailor district?
2. Did any of the shops manufacture soldier's uniforms or possibly sew on insignia?
3. I know that Cross and Paul go in the direction of Hanbury St off Buck's Row. Would Goulston St. be passed from Mitre Square to Hanbury St.?
4. What types of knives would a tailor use?
5. Considering the newspaper ref. the Martha Tabram inquest, what happened to Pearly Polly?