Torso Murders

[John Wheat]

Well, we actually know that the 1873 victim had her temple bashed with something hard, making that the probable cause of death.
We also know that all of the torso victims were dismembered very soon after death, while the corpse was still warm, so that too strenghtens the idea that they were murdered.

I agree Fisherman. How many failed abortion patients have there head bashed in?

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

Two torso cases involved a cut from the bottom of sternum down to pubes;

"An incision had evidently been made from the ensiform cartilage to the pubes"

"A vertical incision, running from 2 inches below the ensiform cartilage downward, and ending on the left side of the external genitals"

Whereas a contemporary post-mortem incision started from the top of the sternum;

"The incision for exposing the cavities of the thorax and abdomen, as usually made, commences at the episternal notch and terminates at the symphysis".

I'm sure the doctors performing the post-mortem exam on any of the torso cases would have recognised if one had already been carried out.

It was actually three cases, Joshua: Rainham, Jackson and the Pinchin Street torso.

[Trevor Marriott]

It was actually three cases, Joshua: Rainham, Jackson and the Pinchin Street torso.

Isnt it funny that the police at the time or thereafter never considered that a serial killer was at work, when they were at the hub of the investigation into the torsos.

Even some of the inquests didnt return verdicts of murder.

Yet here you and others are with less information available to you all saying a serial killer was at work.

This torso thread had detracted away from the torsos relative to the Whitechapel murders by the introduction of torsos that were the clearly the subject of murders that took place years before and as has been stated one with the head bashed in. Lets keep the feet on the ground can we ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

Isnt it funny that the police at the time or thereafter never considered that a serial killer was at work, when they were at the hub of the investigation into the torsos.

Even some of the inquests didnt return verdicts of murder.

Yet here you and others are with less information available to you all saying a serial killer was at work.

This torso thread had detracted away from the torsos relative to the Whitechapel murders by the introduction of torsos that were the clearly the subject of murders that took place years before and as has been stated one with the head bashed in. Lets keep the feet on the ground can we ?

www.trevormarriott.co.ck

Instead they considered the torso the work of the ripper in the whitehall case

[Joshua Rogan]

It was actually three cases, Joshua: Rainham, Jackson and the Pinchin Street torso.

Well yes, but Jackson also had her chest opened up so to my mind is the most like an autopsy, in that respect at least.

[Pierre]

Thanks for that, Debra!

Itīs absolutely mindboggling how these matters have not been accepted as pointing to a shared identity of the killers. Both women also had their abdomens opened up from ribcage to pubes, and both women had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps that were subsequently discarded.

To think that two different men got the self same ideas into their heads, and performed the mutilations in the self same way! Truly amazing!

And to think that the person who opened Jackson up from breastbone to pubes , cut away her abdominal wall in flaps, cut the uterus out together with part of the bladder just like in the Chapman case, only to subsequently bundle it all up together with the placenta and part of the maternal chord and launch it on the Thames, was an abortionist who had the bad luck of having Jackson die at his house!

I would never have guessed that in a million years!!!

What are the sources for this?

Regards, Pierre

[Fisherman]

What are the sources for this?

Regards, Pierre

Pick a part and I may oblige.

[Fisherman]

I agree Fisherman. How many failed abortion patients have there head bashed in?

Cheers John

The abortionist must have been very cross with her...

[Debra A]

Elizabeth Jackson had all the hallmarks of a failed abortion. The doctors even suspected that in the first instance. I never suggested she was ever taken to a mortuary that was your idea.

If she had died on a back street table then clearly there would have been a need to dispose of the body would there not so why wouldn't someone cut the body up and throw it in the thames ?

As normal you are missing the points in relation to mortuaries. Bodies or body parts could be obtained. In the case of bodies it was the responsibility of those acquiring them to ensure a proper burial afterwards that costs money.

In many of the case the body parts found could not be positively linked to the torsos found.

Bodies and body parts were available to doctors, surgeons, anatomists, and medical students. One obtained anything could have been done with them, you have to accept that and think outside the box now and again.

You are quick to find fault but wont accept that there are other plausible explanations which have to be considered. You should remember the words prove or disprove !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

For the very last time, please read this carefully, Trevor ;The doctors official conclusion, given at the final legal inquest was that there had been NO abortion performed on Elizabeth Jackson. It was the newspapers that reported that Dr Bond had hinted at an abortion related death because of the contents of the first parcel found. Careful observation on later found parts showed that wasn't the case.You seem to want to ignore this official conclusion and cling to the early newspaper report while you have the audacity to call others out all the time for relying on newspaper reports!!

Yes, you did suggest she was might have been taken to a mortuary. This is what you said in your last post to me:

Do you accept that those incisions are used in post mortems ? if you do then why is it not possible that some of those torsos came from mortuaries after post mortems being carried out on them ?

If she had died on a back street table while what was happening Trevor? Elizabeth was destitute and had no money to pay for any sort of medical treatment and what sort of procedure was this back street table operator hoping to do by opening up a woman from ribs to pubes?

So, you are now proposing that after Elizabeth died her whole body was sold from a back street table where somebody or other had opened her up from ribs to pubes and that to avoid reporting her death he chopped her up and dumped her or he sold her body to anatomist or a medical school who basically did nothing with her body except take her heart and uterus and dump the rest. If medical facilities were satisfied with just staring at a whole arm as part of the learning process why not just study an arm still attached to a living person. No dissection was done on these body parts before they were dumped.

I do accept other alternatives may be possible but I prefer to apply each scenario to each specific case and see if it fits. You generalise all the time. So far none of your proposals fit with the known facts and it's as simple as that. Failed abortion could only apply to one of the cases-Whitehall and I know that these possibly being dissected medical cast offs can't be right as they are all untouched.

I will concede that Elizabeth may have been poisoned by something taken in an attempt to cause a premature birth and died instantly, as I've said many times. Historically women dying from abortion related deaths died many days after an attempt at abortion and usually from infection. This can't apply to Elizabeth.

I am just offering counter points to your proposals for you to answer directly and apply to specific torso cases, rather than fobbing us off with generalisations - ...but you never do. You seem incapable of doing this and switch to insults instead. A week, six months, two years from now you will still be claiming that Elizabeth died as the result of an abortion when the facts show that isn't true.

[Trevor Marriott]

For the very last time, please read this carefully, Trevor ;The doctors official conclusion, given at the final legal inquest was that there had been NO abortion performed on Elizabeth Jackson. It was the newspapers that reported that Dr Bond had hinted at an abortion related death because of the contents of the first parcel found. Careful observation on later found parts showed that wasn't the case.You seem to want to ignore this official conclusion and cling to the early newspaper report while you have the audacity to call others out all the time for relying on newspaper reports!!

Yes, you did suggest she was might have been taken to a mortuary. This is what you said in your last post to me:



If she had died on a back street table while what was happening Trevor? Elizabeth was destitute and had no money to pay for any sort of medical treatment and what sort of procedure was this back street table operator hoping to do by opening up a woman from ribs to pubes?

So, you are now proposing that after Elizabeth died her whole body was sold from a back street table where somebody or other had opened her up from ribs to pubes and that to avoid reporting her death he chopped her up and dumped her or he sold her body to anatomist or a medical school who basically did nothing with her body except take her heart and uterus and dump the rest. If medical facilities were satisfied with just staring at a whole arm as part of the learning process why not just study an arm still attached to a living person. No dissection was done on these body parts before they were dumped.

I do accept other alternatives may be possible but I prefer to apply each scenario to each specific case and see if it fits. You generalise all the time. So far none of your proposals fit with the known facts and it's as simple as that. Failed abortion could only apply to one of the cases-Whitehall and I know that these possibly being dissected medical cast offs can't be right as they are all untouched.

I will concede that Elizabeth may have been poisoned by something taken in an attempt to cause a premature birth and died instantly, as I've said many times. Historically women dying from abortion related deaths died many days after an attempt at abortion and usually from infection. This can't apply to Elizabeth.

I am just offering counter points to your proposals for you to answer directly and apply to specific torso cases, rather than fobbing us off with generalisations - ...but you never do. You seem incapable of doing this and switch to insults instead. A week, six months, two years from now you will still be claiming that Elizabeth died as the result of an abortion when the facts show that isn't true.

But Debra, thats just it, the facts do tend to point to that but you seem to want to interpret those facts differently.

Some more of what Dr Biggs says about these torsos. Here is some more from Dr Biggs for you and the other members on here of Murder Inc to digest,

"Considering the individual cases specifically, I have to say that I would always be concerned where separate parts are found in different locations and at different times. Nowadays we can link body parts through DNA to make sure we are dealing with a single individual, but back then they were relying on things 'fitting together'. It is possible (but I am not suggesting likely) that body parts attributed to a single 'case' in this series may in fact have come from more than one person"

"If we assume, however, that each 'case' is indeed just a single body then there are still some issues to address. In case I,(1887) there is a comment about the uterus being that of a virgin. Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children, an 'unused' uterus from a virgin can look identical to that from an 'experienced' owner who has not had any children. It is also unclear why they have suggested that the individual may have been unable to conceive. With regard to the cuts being made after death, it is probably a safe assumption (most dismemberments take place after death!), but relying on a lack of 'ecchymosis' is not necessarily safe in a body recovered from water. It is well recognised that immersion can leach out blood from wounds, making them look like post mortem injuries when they were in fact inflicted in life. Again, I am not suggesting that these cuts were made in life, I am just saying that the inferences of the doctors are perhaps not as secure as they seem to be. I think it is worth noting that comments relating to 'anatomical knowledge' or 'surgical skill' should be taken with a pinch of salt in these sorts of cases. I have seen surgeons and pathologists make a right mess of human anatomy, and I have seen 'amateurs' making a pretty good job of chopping up a body at their first attempt. Generalisations cannot be used to comment on specific cases, and I find their assumption that a surgeon or anatomist could not have done such a good job because they are not cutting as regularly as a hunter or butcher quite bizarre."

" The Whitehall Torso- I can recall one particular case of dismemberment in which I have been involved, where all the parts (six in total) turned up in different counties (some on land, some submerged in water) over a nearly 4 month period. We knew how many months the final part had been missing for, but we wouldn't have tried to 'guess' that time period simply by looking at how decomposed the tissues were! They also seem to think that the method of disarticulation was 'identical' to the previous case. If you look at a series of unrelated dismembered bodies you will see some startling similarities between them. This does not mean you can conclude that they were carried out in the same way / with the same tool(s) / by the same person(s). When disposing of a body people (even without prior knowledge or instruction) tend to adopt very similar strategies for dividing up the body to make it more manageable for concealment / transportation. The finished results end up looking very similar!"

In concluding he says

Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can't shed any light on that side of things I'm afraid. Dismemberment isn't that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce so they couldn't be linked to the woman after she was found (intact).

"The fact that one of the bodies had been pregnant certainly raises the possibility of complications of attempted abortion or other 'back street' obstetric procedure. Again, this is simply a possibility rather than something which can be 'proved' at this stage"

To the penultimte para I put the scenario that the victims might have died at the address of the abortionist in which case they would need to dispose of the body-Dr Biggs agreed on this.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Errata]

Is there any chance that given how a majority of the remains were wrapped that it's possible these women were bound before death and the coroners either missed it or didn't mention it?

[RockySullivan]

Is there any chance that given how a majority of the remains were wrapped that it's possible these women were bound before death and the coroners either missed it or didn't mention it?

The Pinchin torso has some marks on the elbow I believe like she may have been bound

[harry]

Reference the head wound mentioned.Was it fully established that the injury was caused by a blow,and not the result of the person falling and stricking her head on some object?

[Fisherman]

Reference the head wound mentioned.Was it fully established that the injury was caused by a blow,and not the result of the person falling and stricking her head on some object?

We can discard that possibility, Harry, since Dr Kempster said that there were TWO distinct and hard blows to the temple, delivered in quick succession. He added that they would have rendered the woman unconscious immedeiately and that they would probably have caused death.

[Fisherman]

But Debra, thats just it, the facts do tend to point to that but you seem to want to interpret those facts differently.

Some more of what Dr Biggs says about these torsos. Here is some more from Dr Biggs for you and the other members on here of Murder Inc to digest,

"Considering the individual cases specifically, I have to say that I would always be concerned where separate parts are found in different locations and at different times. Nowadays we can link body parts through DNA to make sure we are dealing with a single individual, but back then they were relying on things 'fitting together'. It is possible (but I am not suggesting likely) that body parts attributed to a single 'case' in this series may in fact have come from more than one person"

"If we assume, however, that each 'case' is indeed just a single body then there are still some issues to address. In case I,(1887) there is a comment about the uterus being that of a virgin. Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children, an 'unused' uterus from a virgin can look identical to that from an 'experienced' owner who has not had any children. It is also unclear why they have suggested that the individual may have been unable to conceive. With regard to the cuts being made after death, it is probably a safe assumption (most dismemberments take place after death!), but relying on a lack of 'ecchymosis' is not necessarily safe in a body recovered from water. It is well recognised that immersion can leach out blood from wounds, making them look like post mortem injuries when they were in fact inflicted in life. Again, I am not suggesting that these cuts were made in life, I am just saying that the inferences of the doctors are perhaps not as secure as they seem to be. I think it is worth noting that comments relating to 'anatomical knowledge' or 'surgical skill' should be taken with a pinch of salt in these sorts of cases. I have seen surgeons and pathologists make a right mess of human anatomy, and I have seen 'amateurs' making a pretty good job of chopping up a body at their first attempt. Generalisations cannot be used to comment on specific cases, and I find their assumption that a surgeon or anatomist could not have done such a good job because they are not cutting as regularly as a hunter or butcher quite bizarre."

" The Whitehall Torso- I can recall one particular case of dismemberment in which I have been involved, where all the parts (six in total) turned up in different counties (some on land, some submerged in water) over a nearly 4 month period. We knew how many months the final part had been missing for, but we wouldn't have tried to 'guess' that time period simply by looking at how decomposed the tissues were! They also seem to think that the method of disarticulation was 'identical' to the previous case. If you look at a series of unrelated dismembered bodies you will see some startling similarities between them. This does not mean you can conclude that they were carried out in the same way / with the same tool(s) / by the same person(s). When disposing of a body people (even without prior knowledge or instruction) tend to adopt very similar strategies for dividing up the body to make it more manageable for concealment / transportation. The finished results end up looking very similar!"

In concluding he says

Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can't shed any light on that side of things I'm afraid. Dismemberment isn't that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce so they couldn't be linked to the woman after she was found (intact).

"The fact that one of the bodies had been pregnant certainly raises the possibility of complications of attempted abortion or other 'back street' obstetric procedure. Again, this is simply a possibility rather than something which can be 'proved' at this stage"

To the penultimte para I put the scenario that the victims might have died at the address of the abortionist in which case they would need to dispose of the body-Dr Biggs agreed on this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well, well - it finally happened! Dr Biggs is commenting SPECIFICALLY on the torso murders!

I wasnīt expecting that, I must say!

Now, letīs have a look at what Biggs has to say! For example:

"It is possible (but I am not suggesting likely) that body parts attributed to a single 'case' in this series may in fact have come from more than one person"


Here he agrees with what Murder Inc says: it is unlikely that the medicos would get the fitting wrong.
What could make it likely that they did? I would say that if the surfaces were not cleany cut, but instead torn, then there could be some difficulty involved. But when we have exact cuts, straight angles and no fraying to work with, that risk is quickly dissolved.

And this:
"With regard to the cuts being made after death, it is probably a safe assumption (most dismemberments take place after death!), but relying on a lack of 'ecchymosis' is not necessarily safe in a body recovered from water. It is well recognised that immersion can leach out blood from wounds, making them look like post mortem injuries when they were in fact inflicted in life."


The medicos actually opened up for the possibility that the body of the 1873 victim was cut up while still alive. I can only assume that this would have applied to the other victims too, since they all showed a muscle contracion that knit the cutting close to death.

Next up:

"I think it is worth noting that comments relating to 'anatomical knowledge' or 'surgical skill' should be taken with a pinch of salt in these sorts of cases. I have seen surgeons and pathologists make a right mess of human anatomy, and I have seen 'amateurs' making a pretty good job of chopping up a body at their first attempt. Generalisations cannot be used to comment on specific cases, and [B][U]I find their assumption that a surgeon or anatomist could not have done such a good job because they are not cutting as regularly as a hunter or butcher quite bizarre."

Letīs keep in mind that Biggs never saw the Torso mans work. It is true that there have been cases where people with no former experience of dismembering have made quality efforts on their first try. But in the Torso series, there was evidence that the perpetrator had anatomical knowledge and knew exactly where to cut and open up a joint, and he never made a sloppy job of a single joint as far as we know.
The fact is that Biggs has in his former comments made it clear that he has a very limited experience of dismemberment cases:

"The handful of dismemberment cases that I have personally dealt with*in my short career so far have all ended up looking fairly similar..."

So the good doctor seems to have very little to compare with. And what little he has, seems to have led him to conclusions that are not true for the Torso killer:

"I have dealt with a few of these dismemberment cases, and I've dealt with loads (and loads!) of road traffic / train collision / aircrash deaths where bodies have ended up being 'dismembered'.* There is almost never a clean line of separation between the body parts, and there always ends up being a ragged edge here and there."


Here, Biggs actually compares the dismemberment cases he has seen with train collision victims and aircrash deaths, where the bodies have been grinded to a pulp, more or less, and the limbs have been torn off. And he confidently concludes that there is almost never a clean line of separation and that there will always be ragged edges.
The exact opposite applies in the Torso cases - AND THAT IS WHY THEY ARE SO VERY DISTINCTIVE AND UNIQUE!!! - the cuts are ALL clean, unjagged and unfrayed, and there are no ragged edges to be seen anywhere.

Biggs is very obviously disinclined to realize to what extent the Torso killer was an expert cutter. His view is another one, as we know from his former posts:

"Because the cuts are not particularly well planned in advance, there are often flaps and strips of skin here and there, with tears in the soft tissue and spurs of broken off bone.* The skin often has multiple cuts: cuts that don't 'add' any value to the process of limb removal.* They might be interpreted as deliberate 'mutilation', but a simpler explanation is that the person didn't really know what they were doing and just sort of 'went for it'."

Dismemberment? Yes. Thames torso dismemberment? The exact opposite.


Biggs now says that:

"If you look at a series of unrelated dismembered bodies you will see some startling similarities between them. This does not mean you can conclude that they were carried out in the same way / with the same tool(s) / by the same person(s). "

And we know from before what Biggs thinks the similaritites owe to:

"It is not the presence of a common killer that is responsible for the similarities between cases, but the fact that bodies tend to have fairly obvious 'joins' to go for when attempting to reduce the size / bulk of a body."

So he is obviously not relying on the quality of the cutting work when thinking that similarities will be there, but instead on how our limbs are joined together at the same places. And he further confirms that this is what he is speaking about by now adding:

"When disposing of a body people (even without prior knowledge or instruction) tend to adopt very similar strategies for dividing up the body to make it more manageable for concealment / transportation. The finished results end up looking very similar!"

Yes, killers will all take a body apart at the same joints. But no, killers will NOT all do the same cutting work when doing so.

So there you are, Trevor: Thatīs a dismemberment of your posts on the torso cases and your reliance on Dr Biggs. All cuts neat and clean, and all of them taking your reasoning and beliefs apart in small parts to be dumped along the River of Ripperology.