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  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    Let me tell you Miss Know all I have gone out of my way and spent a lot of time trying to get expert opinions on these and other medical issues only for the likes of you and other members of murder inc on here to totally disregard them in favour of you own theories and what you have all read in medical books.

    There has been no warped filters and I object to that insinuation. The fact is you and some others on here cannot handle the truth, and dont want the truth destroying your theories and that is sad.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    "Miss Know all" LOL. so your sexist as well as a total moron.

    BTW I'm a dude there master detective.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • One conclusion that a person may be tempted to draw, and one I cannot disprove, is that a patient might go to a disgraced surgeon or what have you in an attempt to save the pregnancy. Not terminate it. If someone with appendix issues knew that her doctor would take her uterus, she might be desperate enough to find someone who was willing to try to save the baby. And she might die in the attempt. I cannot point to n example of that ever happening, but I can point to women who died of sepsis rather than allow their unborn children be sacrificed in a surgery. So theres an unprovable theory. I got a dozen of those.
      The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Errata View Post
        One conclusion that a person may be tempted to draw, and one I cannot disprove, is that a patient might go to a disgraced surgeon or what have you in an attempt to save the pregnancy. Not terminate it. If someone with appendix issues knew that her doctor would take her uterus, she might be desperate enough to find someone who was willing to try to save the baby. And she might die in the attempt. I cannot point to n example of that ever happening, but I can point to women who died of sepsis rather than allow their unborn children be sacrificed in a surgery. So theres an unprovable theory. I got a dozen of those.
        Does that theory involve somebody opening up the abdomen afterwards, sawing up the ribcage, taking away the abdominal wall in large flaps and sending them down the Thames, accompanied by the placenta, the uterus and the maternal chord, rinsing out the heart of the body, and disarticulating one of the legs and flinging it into the garden of a relative of Mary Shelley...?

        Just curious, Errata.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Errata View Post
          I have a consultant gynecologist. Granted I was raised by him so the relationship is not professional, but..

          Dad says in the 1880s, and the twenty year periods bracketing that that time, There were exactly two ob/gyn surgeries practiced. The early medical (as opposed to panicked) c-sections, and hysterectomies. And the c-sections were also hysterectomies, as they mostly just cut out the entire uterus and then freed the infant. Sealing the uterus from infection was a real problem, so typically they didn't bother. Not until the late teens.

          Also abdominal problems that required surgery during pregnancy also almost always resulted in hysterectomy. If you got appendicitis while pregnant in 1888, odds are the doctor was not even going to try to save the pregnancy or the uterus. And not from some sort of sexism, although that did exist, but because it was simply too difficult a surgery. A pregnant uterus is hard to shift, it takes over the surgical field, it is very susceptible to scarring should digestive juices leak... it was a real mess. Take the plumbing, save a life was the rule of the day.

          Free hospitals existed for these patients. They were cesspools, but they existed. There was no reason to see a back alley guy for an appendix or legal medical need, unless you were picking up a liniment from a granny you knew.

          Medical abortions, or chemical abortions involve ingesting substances that stimulate smooth muscle contractions. Rue was quite popular at one point, lots of things can do it, it's finding ones that wont kill you that is the problem. It's really unpleasant. Lots of vomiting. Diarrhea, it can be a real show. But these would be purchased, and the women were instructed to take it before bed, and allow the expulsion to look like a normal miscarriage. No questions, no red flags. These were absolutely not attended. People chose this method specifically so it would look natural, it was incredibly dangerous, and the whole thing would have been rendered moot by an abortionist hanging out and waiting for 6-18 hours for this to finish. Women died from this method as well, typically by stroke or asphyxia depending on what they took. Without testing, these deaths would be written off as accidents.

          When Planned Parenthood was first founded, some of the early pioneers of the reproductive rights movement documented hundreds of cases of abortion horror stories, bungled birth control, back alley stuff. They are referenced in a lot of the early correspondence of the movements, and those are available. The stories are not dated, but the letters are, some go back to 1914. It's an interesting look at reproductive care of the era.
          Wonderful information, Errata. Thanks again.
          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            "Miss Know all" LOL. so your sexist as well as a total moron.

            BTW I'm a dude there master detective.
            Whatever !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
              In addition to this, Abby, I would like to add that Trevor himself is not as up to scratch as one would have wanted. The old Brueghel painting of blind people leading each other in a long chain springs to mind.
              an apt depiction.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                Wonderful information, Errata. Thanks again.
                Well some people chose not to go to a conventional doctor for conventional methods.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Errata View Post
                  I have a consultant gynecologist. Granted I was raised by him so the relationship is not professional, but..

                  Dad says in the 1880s, and the twenty year periods bracketing that that time, There were exactly two ob/gyn surgeries practiced. The early medical (as opposed to panicked) c-sections, and hysterectomies. And the c-sections were also hysterectomies, as they mostly just cut out the entire uterus and then freed the infant. Sealing the uterus from infection was a real problem, so typically they didn't bother. Not until the late teens.

                  Also abdominal problems that required surgery during pregnancy also almost always resulted in hysterectomy. If you got appendicitis while pregnant in 1888, odds are the doctor was not even going to try to save the pregnancy or the uterus. And not from some sort of sexism, although that did exist, but because it was simply too difficult a surgery. A pregnant uterus is hard to shift, it takes over the surgical field, it is very susceptible to scarring should digestive juices leak... it was a real mess. Take the plumbing, save a life was the rule of the day.

                  Free hospitals existed for these patients. They were cesspools, but they existed. There was no reason to see a back alley guy for an appendix or legal medical need, unless you were picking up a liniment from a granny you knew.

                  Medical abortions, or chemical abortions involve ingesting substances that stimulate smooth muscle contractions. Rue was quite popular at one point, lots of things can do it, it's finding ones that wont kill you that is the problem. It's really unpleasant. Lots of vomiting. Diarrhea, it can be a real show. But these would be purchased, and the women were instructed to take it before bed, and allow the expulsion to look like a normal miscarriage. No questions, no red flags. These were absolutely not attended. People chose this method specifically so it would look natural, it was incredibly dangerous, and the whole thing would have been rendered moot by an abortionist hanging out and waiting for 6-18 hours for this to finish. Women died from this method as well, typically by stroke or asphyxia depending on what they took. Without testing, these deaths would be written off as accidents.

                  When Planned Parenthood was first founded, some of the early pioneers of the reproductive rights movement documented hundreds of cases of abortion horror stories, bungled birth control, back alley stuff. They are referenced in a lot of the early correspondence of the movements, and those are available. The stories are not dated, but the letters are, some go back to 1914. It's an interesting look at reproductive care of the era.
                  as usual Errata
                  you are a fountain of knowledge! Thanks for posting this!!
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Errata View Post
                    I have a consultant gynecologist. Granted I was raised by him so the relationship is not professional, but..

                    Dad says in the 1880s, and the twenty year periods bracketing that that time, There were exactly two ob/gyn surgeries practiced. The early medical (as opposed to panicked) c-sections, and hysterectomies. And the c-sections were also hysterectomies, as they mostly just cut out the entire uterus and then freed the infant. Sealing the uterus from infection was a real problem, so typically they didn't bother. Not until the late teens.

                    Those were the conventional methods back street quacks were less conventional to the point of almost being butchers that is another reason why so many died. 85% mortality in all legal c sections.

                    Also abdominal problems that required surgery during pregnancy also almost always resulted in hysterectomy. If you got appendicitis while pregnant in 1888, odds are the doctor was not even going to try to save the pregnancy or the uterus. And not from some sort of sexism, although that did exist, but because it was simply too difficult a surgery. A pregnant uterus is hard to shift, it takes over the surgical field, it is very susceptible to scarring should digestive juices leak... it was a real mess. Take the plumbing, save a life was the rule of the day.

                    Again conventional medical practices

                    Free hospitals existed for these patients. They were cesspools, but they existed. There was no reason to see a back alley guy for an appendix or legal medical need, unless you were picking up a liniment from a granny you knew.

                    No one mentioned an appendix

                    Medical abortions, or chemical abortions involve ingesting substances that stimulate smooth muscle contractions. Rue was quite popular at one point, lots of things can do it, it's finding ones that wont kill you that is the problem. It's really unpleasant. Lots of vomiting. Diarrhea, it can be a real show. But these would be purchased, and the women were instructed to take it before bed, and allow the expulsion to look like a normal miscarriage. No questions, no red flags. These were absolutely not attended. People chose this method specifically so it would look natural, it was incredibly dangerous, and the whole thing would have been rendered moot by an abortionist hanging out and waiting for 6-18 hours for this to finish. Women died from this method as well, typically by stroke or asphyxia depending on what they took. Without testing, these deaths would be written off as accidents.

                    the reproductive rights movement documented hundreds of cases of abortion horror stories, bungled birth control, back alley stuff. They are referenced in a lot of the early correspondence of the movements, and those are available. The stories are not dated, but the letters are, some go back to 1914. It's an interesting look at reproductive care of the era.
                    The last para supports what I said

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Errata View Post
                      And the c-sections were also hysterectomies, as they mostly just cut out the entire uterus and then freed the infant.
                      Would this have resulted in the death of the mother, or would she have a chance of surviving this procedure at that time?

                      Take the plumbing, save a life was the rule of the day.
                      Whose life would be saved though?

                      "The upper part of the vagina was attached to the uterus, both ovaries and broad ligaments were present, and the posterior wall of the bladder"

                      Is it possible that Liz died, but her child might have lived?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                        I am not even going to attempt to speculate on what did or did not go on in 1888 with regards to prostitutes or anyone else getting pregnant who did not or could not afford to have a baby, or died from any other back street procedure or anything noxious administered to them in the course of any procedure.

                        It is a known fact that there were back street abortionists, what other medical procedures they also involved themselves in is a matter for conjecture, but administering a noxious substance to facilitate an abortion is one that I would suggest was also prevalent back then.

                        As you also know there are many other complications that a pregnant woman might encounter for which in 1888 they may choose to not go to a normal doctor.

                        C Sections were in their infancy back then with a very high mortality rate 85% and the midline transverse incision technique was still being developed so abdomens were opened mainly from top to bottom to get the baby out.

                        For your further information I am also forwarding all the stuff on Jackson to my consultant gynaecologist.

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                        No one has to speculate-generally people do historical research to find out. I know that concept is alien to you, Trevor. I wonder if you think 'experts' are born and not created..

                        It is a known fact that abortion was illegal and that women used back street abortionists, usually in the form of a local woman who also doubled up delivering the neighbourhood babies.

                        A 'normal' doctor could be had for free at the workhouse infirmary for a destitute woman like Elizabeth, whereas, a back street 'whatever' (I still don't know what you are proposing they were) would cost her money. And like Errata has just mentioned, there would be little reason to go to a back street operator for anything.
                        ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                        I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                          The abdomen was cut down the centre but the foetus removed from the uterus by a cut through the left wall. Doesn't that suggest that the uterus was no longer in the abdomen, or the flaps of skin had already been removed?
                          Yes, that's an excellent point.
                          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                            No one has to speculate-generally people do historical research to find out. I know that concept is alien to you, Trevor. I wonder if you think 'experts' are born and not created..

                            It is a known fact that abortion was illegal and that women used back street abortionists, usually in the form of a local woman who also doubled up delivering the neighbourhood babies.

                            A 'normal' doctor could be had for free at the workhouse infirmary for a destitute woman like Elizabeth, whereas, a back street 'whatever' (I still don't know what you are proposing they were) would cost her money. And like Errata has just mentioned, there would be little reason to go to a back street operator for anything.
                            But you have to think out of the box sometimes people can un predicatable

                            But we have countless records of illegal abortions, and abortionists. You make it sound if they never existed and no one ever went to them. There were more than you think.

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              Yes, but you are not a medical expert, Debra...!
                              Does a certificate in ear piercing not count then?
                              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                                But you have to think out of the box sometimes people can un predicatable

                                But we have countless records of illegal abortions, and abortionists. You make it sound if they never existed and no one ever went to them. There were more than you think.

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                No, You have to do your research like everyone else does and then you would know the pitfalls and the probability of the scenarios you propose being plausible or not.

                                Of course there were illegal abortions, no one disputes that!! You are unbelievable. What is being discussed here is whether or not Dr Bond's conclusion that no illegal procedure had been attempted and that no vaginal birth had occurred, based on his own observations is valid. Everyone here apart from you seems to think it was.
                                If he was correct then you are wrong that Elizabeth died as the result of an 'abortion gone wrong', which is the term you keep using.
                                You'd also need to give us a list of obstetric procedures that a woman with no money would need to seek out in the back streets and why.
                                ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                                I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                                Comment

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