Did Mary know her killer?

[barnflatwyngarde]

he probably would have been if hutch didn't eff it all up!

And if Abberline hadn't embraced Hutchinson's statement with "unseemly haste".

[Abby Normal]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

he probably would have been if hutch didn't eff it all up!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

Thanks for this Lynn.

The point I was making that JTR as a Blotchy “nobody" is not a flashy solution like the Royal connection, the drowned Barrister, the insane Jewish resident, etc, etc, etc.

I still think that some people are ignoring what are clearly important primary pieces of evidence to pursue a less credible "solution".

I know that McDermott was apparently a British agent with involvement in the Fenian movement, but I was unaware that he is mooted as a possible "Blotchy".

I will trawl through the forums to bring myself up to speed.

Thanks for the heads up.

[lynn cates]

Red Jim

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

[Abby Normal]

Abby,
I can't really disagree with your well thought out hypothesis.

It baffles me that so many people seem to ignore primary source evidence (Mrs Cox statement re Blotchy) only to use contentious evidence (newspaper reports from across the UK) to bolster a particular suspect hypothesis.

Blotchy was seen entering Millers Court with Mary, and as such must be regarded as a prime suspect, if not the prime suspect.

If Blotchy was the killer, he may well have died or been committed shortly after the Millers Court murder.

Short of trawling the death registers or Asylum admissions for Whitechapel for the 6 month period after 9th November 1888, the identity of Blotchy will probably never be known.

It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache.

In conlusion I believe:

• That Mary went back to Millers Court With Blotchy.
• That she was murdered by Blotchy in Millers Court.
• That Hutchinson fabricated his story.

I believe these things because the evidence indicates it.

yup-you and me both!
Blotchy, to me, seems more likrly than the other viable suspects to be Mary's killer and JtR.

if he was, I think then that hutch was there that night, but probably just waiting for blotchy to leave . Later making up the story of his encounter with Mary and A Man to cash in somehow.

If Blotchy was not the killer, then I put hutch as close second.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Abby,
I can't really disagree with your well thought out hypothesis.

It baffles me that so many people seem to ignore primary source evidence (Mrs Cox statement re Blotchy) only to use contentious evidence (newspaper reports from across the UK) to bolster a particular suspect hypothesis.

Blotchy was seen entering Millers Court with Mary, and as such must be regarded as a prime suspect, if not the prime suspect.

If Blotchy was the killer, he may well have died or been committed shortly after the Millers Court murder.

Short of trawling the death registers or Asylum admissions for Whitechapel for the 6 month period after 9th November 1888, the identity of Blotchy will probably never be known.

It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache.

In conlusion I believe:

• That Mary went back to Millers Court With Blotchy.
• That she was murdered by Blotchy in Millers Court.
• That Hutchinson fabricated his story.

I believe these things because the evidence indicates it.

[Spider]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Sounds like a very reasonable scenario ;-)

[RockySullivan]

Do the witnesses Sightings of Astrakhan & blotchy indicate Mary was working? I think the circumstances with McCarthy indicate he had an arrangement with Kelly and other prostitutes like Prater.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Nice when people make up their minds based on what is known rather than what is assumed.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

Yeah, I must admit Im a bit of a stickler when people post comment after comment based on assumptions that have no foundation in any evidence anywhere . In this instance, the night of Nov 8th, 1888, there is no evidence Mary was soliciting, and since she lived with a man until the end of October who objected to her selling herself and who was supporting her financially, there is no evidence that while Barnett lived there Mary solicited regularly.

Her arrears is some evidence of that statement...(arrears that some continue to question despite the landlords statement that they existed)...and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

Forgive me for requiring some evidence of these spurious suppositions.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

I have to admit that the number of posters who seem content to imagine Mary selling herself that last night, or talking clients into her room is entertaining. It seems a lack of evidence or previous histories mean nothing to those whose do so.

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

[Penhalion]

Is THAT what they were calling it back then?

[lynn cates]

folk music

Hello Batman.

"There was a widespread expansion of prostitution in that area at that time and you want people to believe she was just up to Gin Rummy with a man with a pale of ale only a few hours before she was murdered?"

Gin rummy? Heavens no. She was regaling him with Irish folk music a good long time.

Cheers.
LC