Did Mary know her killer?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

I've the same sort of suspicious mind you have, and really do entertain serious doubts regarding the relationship between McCarthy and Kelly...it had occurred to me that Kelly was on a no-rent (or minimal rent) but share-the-dues kind of arrangement...perhaps with McCarthy's shop as a kind of go-between venue?

The fact she'd allegedly shared her room (albeit briefly) with another prostitute speaks to me that McCarthy was complicit in some fashion...the man has her in a room with a separate entrance directly overlooked by the back window of his chandlers storeroom for goodness sake, so he knew what was going on...

Was Prater in the same situation? The witness-statements could lead you to think that way...on the night in question, when Prater spent so much time in the shop, was she actually sorting out her finances with her pimp? Was she collecting assignments?

Were Bowyer's visits concerned more with collecting his share rather than his rent? Well ok, the evidence seems to suggest McCarthy could've got about four bob a week for the room as it stood...Let's suppose Mary could get a tanner (6d) a time as younger bait, and could manage say just half a dozen clients a day on six days a week (be charitable and give her the sabbath off)...thats 18/- a week of which McCarthy would get at least half - nine bob a week...I suspect he'd take far more than half...three quarters at least... so at least 13/6...I think Bowyer would visit at least daily to ensure his master got his due...(and incidentally I think the take was seven days and it was far more than I've posited)

OK this is nothing new...others have speculated the same way...but where does this leave Barnett...IIRC allegedly per McCarthy, (and this may need to be taken with a pinch of salt), it was Barnett who originally took out the rental in the name of "Mr Kelly"...was he simply cocking a deaf'un from the start?

Or was his interest in MJK genuine at the beginning, and did an arrangement between MJK and McCarthey only arise after their relationship became rocky? Or was Barnett an immature romantic trapped in a very uncomfortable relationship?

Who knows...but I do think there is reason to view the alleged Landlord-Tenant relationship with some doubt...

All the best

Dave

[Penhalion]

McCarty wouldn't have wanted anyone to know if he was getting a kickback from MJK's activities because earning money via prostitution was very illegal and could have resulted in him loosing not only money and property but a good deal of 'face' in the community. Would there have been an element of hypocrisy in other's shunning him for taking money from a sex worker? Sure, but appearances were important for those struggling to better themselves.

Do I think McCarthy was taking money from MJK in lieu of rent? I don't know- possible but unproven. If he needed an excuse for checking up on her, surely being one or two weeks in arrears would be justification enough. Why say it was 6 weeks or more?

[RockySullivan]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

[The Good Michael]

Sharing her earnings as well as paying her rent, do you mean? Would that be worth it to McCarthy, though? He could get 4s or more for the room anyway, and how much would Mary be charging her customers? Even though she was quite young and attractive you wouldnt think she'd get much more than 6d a time. She had to eat as well. If he got two shillings a week from her he would be lucky! I do think Mary was in some arrears to McCarthy, but not as much as he claimed.

Right, I'm talking about sharing her earnings and perhaps paying a bit off the debt. The idea of not having either of her windows fixed after a month or more, and not wanting to be blamed for not taking care of such measures, may have prompted McCarthy to lie to the police. Also, there may have been a connection to the McCarthy family of Breezer's Hill and MJK may have been thought "good for it".

Mike

Mike

[Rosella]

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

Mike

Sharing her earnings as well as paying her rent, do you mean? Would that be worth it to McCarthy, though? He could get 4s or more for the room anyway, and how much would Mary be charging her customers? Even though she was quite young and attractive you wouldnt think she'd get much more than 6d a time. She had to eat as well. If he got two shillings a week from her he would be lucky! I do think Mary was in some arrears to McCarthy, but not as much as he claimed.

[RockySullivan]

What a really interesting link Rocky, thanks for posting it.

Of course the pipe allegedly found in Mary's room may have come from anyone, as women too smoked clay pipes in those days. Nevertheless, it's disappointing if the doctor, presumably Bond, smashed it. The stem probably broke off but the tobacco in the pipe bowl could still presumably have been traced, if it hadn't all been smoked down to a sticky tar.

Thanks Rosella, I found it interesting. I don't see any reason a Dr. would smash a pipe, but it also seems strange for the ripper to leave a pipe behind, unless it was an accident or a taunt. Tracing the tobacco might prove a difficult task. I'm not sure how they'd be able to pinpoint the blend to a specific tobacconist unless it was somewhat unique. I think by the 1880s some companies may have already been mass producing tobacco.

[The Good Michael]

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

I believe Kelly was sharing her earnings with McCarthy. I believe her youthfulness was enough for her to be allowed to live there without having rent money for at least part of the time, because she would have customers. If she was sharing the room with prostitutes, I'm fairly sure she had customers there, and why not? She may have felt safer taking a John back to her own place, knowing she wouldn't have to be walking back from some alley or gate alone. It could be that McCarthy being owed money was a story so he could say, "Well it isn't my fault that someone could open the latch through a window and get in." Because he would have been responsible for the security of his tenants to some extent.

Mike

[Batman]

You keep saying this in spite of the fact you know Cox had no idea she was drunk until she turned to speak. When anyone is "piss-drunk" they will stagger.
Indications are, Kelly was not that drunk, in fact Hutchinson nailed it when he said she was "spree'ish".

MJK was an alcoholic seen by Cox going into her room with Blotchy carrying a pale of ale. She was singing drunk and no doubt getting even more drunk with him.

I don't trust Hutchinson because his whole account has to be taken on faith. There isn't even a description of him to match Cox's description.

[Wickerman]

If she was on good terms regarding rent, then why wasn't her window fixed Jon?

The unrepaired hovels down Millers Court says just as much about McCarthy as it does about the tenants who occupied them.

As for eating and drinking....I believe she came home piss drunk and after eating....so I don't think that's really applicable here.

You keep saying this in spite of the fact you know Cox had no idea she was drunk until she turned to speak. When anyone is "piss-drunk" they will stagger.
Indications are, Kelly was not that drunk, in fact Hutchinson nailed it when he said she was "spree'ish".

A Street Prostitute who, as of October 30th, we have no records for that indicate that she had ever brought any client home with her,..was in her own bed, undressed, is not indicative of any solicitation on her part....

Prater, Cox, Lewis & Kennedy all slept fully dressed, but of course they would, that was normal. Only Kelly was entertaining, only Kelly was undressed. This is our clue that no-one broke in, that no-one interrupted her sleep. She was undressed and on one half of the bed because whoever she was with laid on the other half.
Kelly was killed by one of those clients that you say never existed.

[Rosella]

What a really interesting link Rocky, thanks for posting it.

Of course the pipe allegedly found in Mary's room may have come from anyone, as women too smoked clay pipes in those days. Nevertheless, it's disappointing if the doctor, presumably Bond, smashed it. The stem probably broke off but the tobacco in the pipe bowl could still presumably have been traced, if it hadn't all been smoked down to a sticky tar.

[RockySullivan]

I find this pretty interesting, a pipe found in Kelly's room & smashed. Why? The tobacco....a clue...very interesting:

1 When Sir Robert Anderson was interviewed about the Luard murder case in The Daily Chronicle, 1 September 1908, he remarked that, in the case of the Whitechapel murders, there were two distinct clues that were destroyed. One clue was the obliteration of the writing on the wall in Goulston Street; the other clue was a clay pipe that was smashed by a doctor in the fireplace of Mary Kelly’s room. Although it has been surmised that Anderson was referring to a pipe found underneath Alice McKenzie’s body in 1889 or to Joseph Barnett’s (unbroken) pipe in Miller’s Court, it is more likely that he meant another pipe found and broken in Kelly’s room. But he may not have been so concerned with the pipe itself, as with the particular blend of tobacco found in it. Say, a blend that could be traced to a certain tobacco shop, which a suspect was known to frequent.

Quote from The butchers row suspect by Scott Nelson http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...tchersrow.html

[RockySullivan]

2 witnesses heard cries of "0h-murder" at approximately the same time, sometime between 3:30 and 4am. These cries were described as being as close as the witness's door, and as if from the courtyard respectively. Using both witnesses we have good cause to assume that a living female was inside the courtyard but not any one room when she made the call out. There was no more sound heard by either witness. No witness claimed to be that person, or provide statements that would indicate that.

My own personal feeling is that they heard Mary being woken from sleep only to find when opening her door someone she knows well but certainly didn't expect to be showing up there in the middle of the night. She then lets him in.

Cheers

Prater: She then went up to her room and to bed. Between 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent.

So this says she heard screams of Murder Murder Murder not oh murder which is a drastic difference. Who was the visitor.. Bowyer? Would Kelly have gone into the courtyard for any reason at 345?

[Michael W Richards]

Something I'd like to clarify: why is Kelly's cry frequently referred to as "oh murder" when her neighbor stated she heard multiple screams of Murder! Very different things with different implications. The screams have been described as coming from the court, interestingly where Bowyer was several times that night. Did Kelly have any reason to go into the court after 3am? Could Bowyer have returned to the court once more around 3:45?

2 witnesses heard cries of "0h-murder" at approximately the same time, sometime between 3:30 and 4am. These cries were described as being as close as the witness's door, and as if from the courtyard respectively. Using both witnesses we have good cause to assume that a living female was inside the courtyard but not any one room when she made the call out. There was no more sound heard by either witness. No witness claimed to be that person, or provide statements that would indicate that.

My own personal feeling is that they heard Mary being woken from sleep only to find when opening her door someone she knows well but certainly didn't expect to be showing up there in the middle of the night. She then lets him in.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Is there any indication how often McCarthy sent Bowyer to collect rent from Kelly regularly? Bowyer was outside Kelly's apartment a few times the night of her murder the last time reported to be 3am at the tap roughly 45 minutes before the cries of Murder Murder. He returns again in the morning to discover Kelly's body. Did Bowyer have a copy of McCarthys key to room 13? It simply doesn't make sense to me that Kelly would have the only copy of the key. A Landlord usually keeps a master copy. Kelly was a prostitute who hadn't paid her rent in six weeks. Why would Carthy trust her with the only copy? Could Bowyer have paid Kelly a visit after 3 am?

Something I'd like to clarify: why is Kelly's cry frequently referred to as "oh murder" when her neighbor stated she heard multiple screams of Murder! Very different things with different implications. The screams have been described as coming from the court, interestingly where Bowyer was several times that night. Did Kelly have any reason to go into the court after 3am? Could Bowyer have returned to the court once more around 3:45?

[Michael W Richards]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

A Street Prostitute who, as of October 30th, we have no records for that indicate that she had ever brought any client home with her,..was in her own bed, undressed, is not indicative of any solicitation on her part.

It is indicative that the person who killed her evidently didn't kill her outdoors....but that wont stop you Ripper enthusiasts, Im sure. You imagine she is bringing clients home when she never has, you imagine an outdoor killer is prowling small courtyards for a chance to finally kill indoors, and you imagine that someone with her in her own room in her own name after 3:30am is a stranger to her...you should write fantasy cd. You certainly have the mindset for it.

Cheers