Did Mary know her killer?

[elleryqueen74]

If Hutch's statement is to be believed then the fact that this man tapped her on the shoulder and said something, to which they both started laughing, shows one of two things:
a) she had met him before (even if only that day)
b) Jack had a sense of humour?

Pat..............

Not sure how you can deduce that just because a man taps a woman on the shoulder and says something and they both laugh that it means they met before? I mean surely any man can go up to any women he has never met before tap her on the shoulder and say something funny or witty to her which they can both have a bit of a chuckle over. Surely you don't think that isn't possible.

[Wickerman]

I stand corrected Jon !
I should have said If Hutch was to be believed and if the police were right about the identity of the murderer....

Strange I just cant see Jack as a charmer but more a blitz opportunist

Pat.....

Hi Pat.
My version would be - (if Hutch is to be believed and), if he really saw her final client.
That is really what I was getting at

Kelly being reported seen with three different men that night; Cox, Hutchinson & Kennedy all had their own stories to tell - only one of them saw 'Jack'.
Whoever we choose to accept is purely based on personal preference.

[Paddy]

I stand corrected Jon !
I should have said If Hutch was to be believed and if the police were right about the identity of the murderer....

Strange I just cant see Jack as a charmer but more a blitz opportunist

Pat.....

[Wickerman]

Why assume it was 'Jack'?

[Paddy]

Hutchinsons identification

If Hutch's statement is to be believed then the fact that this man tapped her on the shoulder and said something, to which they both started laughing, shows one of two things:
a) she had met him before (even if only that day)
b) Jack had a sense of humour?

Pat..............

[Wickerman]

That wasn't what I was implying. I was just toying with the idea that if the 'other Joe' had been the Ripper, then for some reason he decided to spare MJK for several months. Perhaps MJK was his ultimate fantasy and he gradually built up to her murder?

Ok, but isn't that the kind of plot we find in novels?

I think in all likelihood she was a Ripper victim, but should we be so quick to discount the Thames Torso Killer? Here we have another serial killer in the vicinity of London's East End who enjoyed butchering women beyond recognition and preferred to work indoors to fully explore his desires. Bit of a long shot, I admit, because the Torso killer dismembered his victims and took their heads to completely destroy any hope of identifying them. No such problem here. There was more difficulty ID'ing Stride than there was Kelly.

I don't see anything wrong with the idea that the Ripper and the Torso killer may be the same, but it will need some good research to make it in to an acceptable theory.
I would never suggest it myself not until something is found that makes for a persuasive argument.

We can point the finger at anyone when "what-ifs" are all we have.
Sadly, that seems to be the main ingredient these days.

[Harry D]

All conjecture aside, it is really a tough sell to try separate Kelly's murder from Eddowes, and the rest. If Joe Fleming killed Mary then he killed them all, and that raises more questions.
Look at the Yorkshire Ripper victims, they were not all the same either.

That wasn't what I was implying. I was just toying with the idea that if the 'other Joe' had been the Ripper, then for some reason he decided to spare MJK for several months. Perhaps MJK was his ultimate fantasy and he gradually built up to her murder?

I think in all likelihood she was a Ripper victim, but should we be so quick to discount the Thames Torso Killer? Here we have another serial killer in the vicinity of London's East End who enjoyed butchering women beyond recognition and preferred to work indoors to fully explore his desires. Bit of a long shot, I admit, because the Torso killer dismembered his victims and took their heads to completely destroy any hope of identifying them. No such problem here. There was more difficulty ID'ing Stride than there was Kelly.

[Wickerman]

If the Ripper was the 'other Joe' that Mary had been seeing on the side, the one said to have been mistreating her, it poses the question as to why he suddenly decided to make her his next victim?

All conjecture aside, it is really a tough sell to try separate Kelly's murder from Eddowes, and the rest. If Joe Fleming killed Mary then he killed them all, and that raises more questions.
Look at the Yorkshire Ripper victims, they were not all the same either.

[Wickerman]

Mrs Prater is quoted as saying:
"It was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov.

[Harry D]

If the Ripper was the 'other Joe' that Mary had been seeing on the side, the one said to have been mistreating her, it poses the question as to why he suddenly decided to make her his next victim?

[Batman]

Mary took Blotchy face to her room. So if he isnt the murderer then we know she brings men back there. We must remember that Dorset St was an absolute cesspool and Mary had run into bad times recently explaining why she was holed up there. Nobody in their right mind would want to live where she was living, but it was better than sleeping upright with a rope around you.

A later interview with Cox's niece revealed that MJK would go to a place called the Frying Pan and bring back sailours to her room.

[RockySullivan]

I have no idea if Mary knew her killer and I don't believe there is a sufficient basis in the evidence to conclude one way or another. It is equally plausible that Kelly may have been "off the clock" and sharing a room with an acquaintance, or that a sometimes-prostitute 6 weeks behind on her rent and angry at her ex-boyfriend may have invited an unknown client into her warm room on a November night, something many other prostitutes could not offer. The one thing there is no evidence of is forced entry, though I suppose it is theoretically possible.

One thing I object to is the idea that Mary's room was an especially risky place to commit a murder. Really? On a JTR forum where we routinely talk about Bucks Row, Mitre Square, Berner Street, and Hanbury, we single out an enclosed room as being an implausibly risky place to commit a murder?

While there's no risk of being disturbed by a passerbyer, there's no escape route and you can't hear someone coming until their at the door. There's pros & cons but obviously the ripper would have a time mutilating the way he did anywhere on the street

[Damaso Marte]

I have no idea if Mary knew her killer and I don't believe there is a sufficient basis in the evidence to conclude one way or another. It is equally plausible that Kelly may have been "off the clock" and sharing a room with an acquaintance, or that a sometimes-prostitute 6 weeks behind on her rent and angry at her ex-boyfriend may have invited an unknown client into her warm room on a November night, something many other prostitutes could not offer. The one thing there is no evidence of is forced entry, though I suppose it is theoretically possible.

One thing I object to is the idea that Mary's room was an especially risky place to commit a murder. Really? On a JTR forum where we routinely talk about Bucks Row, Mitre Square, Berner Street, and Hanbury, we single out an enclosed room as being an implausibly risky place to commit a murder?

[Wickerman]

But from what we know of the ripper, he only kills women, unfortunates where he has the upper hand. Would a coward like this really attack a man if trapped in a room ? McCarthy let's Kelly go for six weeks and only comes to collect the rent the exact morning she's been murdered....what an unlucky guy

He was never caught in the act so we cannot say what his response would have been.
Besides, it could just have easily been a female who came knocking. Mary had several female friends.

[RockySullivan]

Not strange, Landlords have said the best time to catch these 'ladies' is in a morning, as they typically are out most of the night.

Thats a paraphrase from one landlord who had the same problem with renters.

But from what we know of the ripper, he only kills women, unfortunates where he has the upper hand. Would a coward like this really attack a man if trapped in a room ? McCarthy let's Kelly go for six weeks and only comes to collect the rent the exact morning she's been murdered....what an unlucky guy