Did Mary know her killer?

[GUT]

We don't have any Kiwis here, do we? Aussie in-joke!

And the "U" key is next to the "I" key ... but still fitting for our K1W1 friends

[Rosella]

We don't have any Kiwis here, do we? Aussie in-joke!

[GUT]

Yes, I think Mary did totter out again that night in search of any extra sixpence. She may very well have realised that the overdue rent scenario wasn't going to last forever, whatever the arrangement was with McCarthy and if she could offer a shilling off the back rent instead of sixpence or fourpence or whatever she had in 'savings', that just might placate things for the time being.

Or she was so warn out after her sing dancing and whatever else with Blotchy she wandered out for some fush and chups.

[Rosella]

Yes, I think Mary did totter out again that night in search of any extra sixpence. She may very well have realised that the overdue rent scenario wasn't going to last forever, whatever the arrangement was with McCarthy and if she could offer a shilling off the back rent instead of sixpence or fourpence or whatever she had in 'savings', that just might placate things for the time being.

[GUT]

The Canonicals were not a group of prostitutes, although its probable Mary Kelly did little else to make money for herself. Hence the certificate. All the others can be fairly called Unfortunates, which was a term used to describe single women without work or support that resorted to prostitution when funds were needed for food and a place to sleep. Or booze. That describes Pollys situation the night she is killed, and Annies, but its not in the evidence that the 3 Canonicals that followed were in the same straights on the respective nights they died.

In fact in Marys case, we have evidence that although she is behind in her rent she still has a room to sleep in. And she ate her last evening.

There was no reason at all for Mary to go out again after arriving home at 11:45pm. She was drunk when she got home, she had eaten, and she accomplished that without selling herself that we know of. She probably could have just hung off some guys arm on Mayors day and had another free ride.

Cheers

And people always act reasonably don't they, especially when they're drunk and mid 20 years in age are nothing but rational at any time even when drunk.

[Bridewell]

and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

There is evidence that, on the night of her death, she took a blotchy-faced man back to her room and there is evidence that she did the same with a prosperous-looking man in an astrakhan coat, both late at night and both on the same evening. There is no proof that these encounters were between a prostitute and her client and there is no obligation to take the testimony of the witnesses concerned at face value. There is, however, evidence that Kelly took men back to her room on the night of her death and, whilst there is no proof that these were for the purposes of prostitution, that is a not unreasonable interpretation. It's one thing to disbelieve the evidence of the witnesses making these claims, but another thing entirely to pretend that such evidence does not exist.

[Wickerman]

......she was scared of the murders so why the hightened risk taking for a few pennies more?

Because the authorities had begun to relax, nothing had happened for 6 weeks.
It was a false calm...

[Wickerman]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

Ok, so perhaps the client was not unknown? We have no indication either way. She may have known both Blotchy and Astrachan.
However, surely most of her clients were 'random', I don't think we should entertain the idea they made appointments.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home).

No reason to take him home?
It was raining that night, why would she choose to perform in the rain when she has a room available?
Who bought her the food, Blotchy, Astrachan, or someone else?

News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Good enough reason's to take them home, afterall, the Ripper never struck indoors.

[DRoy]

hi Droy
exactly what I have been saying. and if blotchy also gave her some money, she's got no reason to go out again.

Abby,

Agreed. We even could say that if Blotchy paid for her supper and booze, then she could use her prostituting money to pay rent. Still no reason to go out again.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

She may have known that someone was coming to collect the overdue rent the following morning. Maybe her final chance to pay or she would be thrown out.

Azarna,

Welcome to Casebook!

I highly doubt she'd be thrown out if she didn't pay the debt, although I'm sure at some point McCarthy would toss her out if she stopped paying all together. Nothing to suggest that was the situation though. In fact she bought a candle from his shop that day so they could have dealt with the rent then.

That would be a very good reason to risk another client. And one who was going to get "the indoors experience" may well have paid more than the "quick fumble in a dark alley" type.

True, but again, she was scared of the murders so why the hightened risk taking for a few pennies more?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Hi DRoy, but if that was her profession that means that's how she earns living. This is assuming Kelly was a prostitute and not just resorting to only when no work is available. I thought Kelly working in a brothel previously was an indicator she had been working as a prostitute for some time, plus McCarthys building almost sounds like a brothel. If Kelly was a prostitute she's going to "work" and earn money, probably as much as she can. Think about the way drug addicted woman are trapped in a cycle of prostitution and you've probably got a similar scenario with Kelly and drinking/prostitution.

Rocky,

Barnett lost his job a few months earlier and nobody has said what Mary was doing for work so we can presume she had to resort to prostitution for both of them to survive. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

However, Mary no longer had to help support Barnett as he was now gone. She only had to work enough to keep McCarthy somewhat happy and ensure she had food and drink. She wouldn't have to work much to do those things. Especially not when she was already scared of the murderer and Barnett no longer around to protect her.

To suggest she all of sudden felt the need to work as much as possible doesn't make much sense, at least to me.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Not specifically addressing your comments per se Rocky, but the topic itself I wonder why her death certificate lists her as a prostitute?

The Canonicals were not a group of prostitutes, although its probable Mary Kelly did little else to make money for herself. Hence the certificate. All the others can be fairly called Unfortunates, which was a term used to describe single women without work or support that resorted to prostitution when funds were needed for food and a place to sleep. Or booze. That describes Pollys situation the night she is killed, and Annies, but its not in the evidence that the 3 Canonicals that followed were in the same straights on the respective nights they died.

In fact in Marys case, we have evidence that although she is behind in her rent she still has a room to sleep in. And she ate her last evening.

There was no reason at all for Mary to go out again after arriving home at 11:45pm. She was drunk when she got home, she had eaten, and she accomplished that without selling herself that we know of. She probably could have just hung off some guys arm on Mayors day and had another free ride.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

hi Droy
exactly what I have been saying. and if blotchy also gave her some money, she's got no reason to go out again.

[Azarna]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.
DRoy

She may have known that someone was coming to collect the overdue rent the following morning. Maybe her final chance to pay or she would be thrown out.

That would be a very good reason to risk another client. And one who was going to get "the indoors experience" may well have paid more than the "quick fumble in a dark alley" type.

[RockySullivan]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home). News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Doesn't sound to me like someone so scared of how she's going to survive that she'd risk taking someone home (or allow in) that she didn't already know and trust.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy, but if that was her profession that means that's how she earns living. This is assuming Kelly was a prostitute and not just resorting to only when no work is available. I thought Kelly working in a brothel previously was an indicator she had been working as a prostitute for some time, plus McCarthys building almost sounds like a brothel. If Kelly was a prostitute she's going to "work" and earn money, probably as much as she can. Think about the way drug addicted woman are trapped in a cycle of prostitution and you've probably got a similar scenario with Kelly and drinking/prostitution.