Did Mary know her killer?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike and Jon,

I'll be in Toronto until mid-May, so plenty of time to work something out (perhaps when the big freeze eases off!), and I'd definitely be interested in exploring other parts of Ontario. Annoyingly, weekends will be the busiest workwise, whereas Mondays are completely free!

Look forward to sorting something out.

Ben

Im sure we will Ben, but so we can arrange something that requires a meeting place outside of Toronto, let me know when you are going to be here and Jon and I can review our own schedules to find a fit.

Cheers Mate

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, who in your opinion would be the likeliest suspect for MJK's murder?

Hi Harry,

I don't have all the answers Harry, despite what many think I believe, but I do believe that Marys death was caused by someone close to her, and I wonder about who exactly this other "Joe" was in her life. The one that she told a friend occasionally treated her badly. Most people assume this other Joe was Fleming, I don't. I think its more likely that its someone that was known as dangerous and perhaps with dangerous connections, and Mary somehow became perceived as a threat to him.

I wonder whether the kind of attack Mary endured before the mutilations, one that has her back turned to her killer, with her on her left side facing the partition wall, an attack that involved the repeated slashing of her face, is some kind of indication that Mary was being punished...maybe for being in a situation that forced him to eliminate her. I think the man that killed her might have actually cared about her too.

The mutilations are indicators of one of 2 things...that a mutilator killed her, or that someone wanted investigators to believe that was the case.

This is a tangential thought, but in the Stride murder Louis Diemshitz said he and an Issac(s) went for help, and Issac Kozebrodski stated within an hour of the murder to the press that Louis sent him alone for help. Who was this Issacs then? Was it the same Issacs that moved into a boarding house around the corner from Mary a few days before her murder, the one who was known to have an astrakan trimmed coat? The one who disappears the night she is murdered?

Don't know...but its a curiosity.

Cheers

[Azarna]

Yea I know. I'm assuming he knocked first. Could the ripper stand out of view to the side of the window?

It was a really tiny room. I doubt a man could stand between the two windows and not show in either, and anywhere else in the room would be visible from one or both. I suppose the only other option would be to squat below the window, or lay down there.

[Ben]

Hi Mike and Jon,

I'll be in Toronto until mid-May, so plenty of time to work something out (perhaps when the big freeze eases off!), and I'd definitely be interested in exploring other parts of Ontario. Annoyingly, weekends will be the busiest workwise, whereas Mondays are completely free!

Look forward to sorting something out.

Ben

[Wickerman]

Ill bet we could make that work if it does so for Ben, lets table it for a possibility Jon.

Meeting up somewhere middle'ish might be best, I wouldn't want you driving all the way out to Kitchener, as nice as it is. Ben has likely spent enough time traveling.
Much depends on the dates, and what shift I am on at work. Likely a weekend would be best, but lets wait on Ben's schedule.

.... but I don't see the killer being in that room near noon anyway,

Me neither.

[Harry D]

Michael, who in your opinion would be the likeliest suspect for MJK's murder?

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed it would, sadly there is nothing between Cambridge and Milton

There is a Montanas Cookhouse in Milton.
http://montanas.ca/location_map.php?id=617

Ill bet we could make that work if it does so for Ben, lets table it for a possibility Jon.

On the issue of whether the killer was in the room when Bowyer moved the cheap drapes and the pilot coat a bit to see in....I wonder why the killer would be still in that room at 10:45am. There were 2 large windows into that room covered and anyone leaving the courtyard would walk past that alcove and those windows. There were cheap muslin curtains and the hole was blocked by the Pilot coat, but I don't see the killer being in that room near noon anyway, when he would certainly have had to have blood on him when he leaves and the streets would be busy with Mayors Day participants.

The blood he would have had on him is yet another indicator that he left when the street was still pretty empty and still dark. There was a pump in the alcove, but it was checked to see if anyone washed blood off there.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Bowyer also looked in through the window.

Yea I know. I'm assuming he knocked first. Could the ripper stand out of view to th side of the window?

[Wickerman]

IF the killing did take place later...is it possible the ripper heard bowyer knock, hid until he left and then scrammed out of there quick?

Bowyer also looked in through the window.

[Wickerman]

Maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle if needed Jon, it would be a pleasure. Or maybe I could bring Ben to you...the KW area is pretty cool.

Cheers Jon

Indeed it would, sadly there is nothing between Cambridge and Milton

There is a Montanas Cookhouse in Milton.

http://montanas.ca/location_map.php?id=617

[Michael W Richards]

Kitchener actually Michael, so a good hours drive away. So not a certainty, but hopefully something can be worked out.

Maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle if needed Jon, it would be a pleasure. Or maybe I could bring Ben to you...the KW area is pretty cool.

Cheers Jon

[RockySullivan]

IF the killing did take place later...is it possible the ripper heard bowyer knock, hid until he left and then scrammed out of there quick?

[Wickerman]

Jon is in Toronto? Really. That makes the nosh and pints even more intriguing Ben.

Kitchener actually Michael, so a good hours drive away. So not a certainty, but hopefully something can be worked out.

[Michael W Richards]

Nope, still not true I'm afraid, Jon.

Onto more important things, though, and I hope we're still on for beers in Toronto? Mike and Scott are still up for it!

Jon is in Toronto? Really. That makes the nosh and pints even more intriguing Ben.

[Wickerman]

From the Star on November 15th:"As we have already said, the only piece of information of any value which has yet transpired is the description given by the widow Cox of a man - short, stout, with a blotchy face and a carroty moustache - who at midnight on Thursday went with the murdered woman into her room."

Opinions of the press hardly constitute factual knowledge.
From the official perspective, Joseph Isaacs (whose appearance certainly answered the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat.), was not picked up in early December because he resembled Blotchy.

The fact that the Home Office was investigating the crimes in tandem with the City and Met police is proof that a possible connection of the crimes and the state of the war against anarchy in London was being assessed.

Not sure what you mean that, the Home Office doesn't investigate by itself, it is the head office in charge of all investigations.

Things like the fact that Liz Strides death matches none of the women in the unsolved file is extremely important, and it is not something that can or should be addressed with..."there may be good reasons for that". There are no reasons present within the known evidence to make excuses for that major discrepancy, so its just a matter whether you or others wish to invoke an unsubstantiated and unwarranted excuse of murder interuptus.

I don't know whether this was an interrupted murder, and if you are honest, neither do you. We may all interpret this incident in different ways, precisely because no factual details exist to enable us to determine one way or the other.
I can see the argument from both sides, so have not committed one way or the other. Though at one time I was quite convinced this murder was not related to the others, these days I am reserved on that point.

If Stride was not a legitimate part of the Canon, then this JtR fellow wasn't pissed off when he met Kate, and the unusual additions to the wound patterns that pre-existed with the priors needs to be addressed. The fact that Kate had her nose cut almost off may well be an important clue when considering we have witness testimony that Kate intended to take a name to the police for the murders. Sticking her nose in that persons business, as it were.

If that were the reason, there is nothing to be gained by killing her after she left the police. The idea is to kill her before she talks to police, surely.

There are precedents for facial mutilations which occurred when Irish self rule factions discovered snitches within their ranks. Some had initials carved into their face.

You pick on one of any number of reason's for facial mutilations, yet not all the victims were mutilated in this fashion. So why kill Nichols & Chapman and not carve up their faces?

What we know, or should be able to agree upon, is that there is no consistent theme, method, or level of skill and knowledge present within the Five, and that alone suggests that some may have been killed for other reasons than a mad killer on the loose.

Ah, so now we leave the facts behind and arrive back at those unsettled issues.
We got there eventually