Did Mary know her killer?

[Michael W Richards]

Fair enough Michael.
How's about earning money so she can eat or drink?

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

If she was on good terms regarding rent, then why wasn't her window fixed Jon? I think the historical perspective on Mary is more telling that any hunches...she ran arrears before Millers Court, and was evicted for it.

As for eating and drinking....I believe she came home piss drunk and after eating....so I don't think that's really applicable here.

Cheers Jon

[gnote]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

[GUT]

That could be explained by the killer striking quickly before Mary could undress completely.

c.d.

Or upset because it wasn't off yet

[c.d.]

Or in more, the only surprise is that she still had the chemise on.

That could be explained by the killer striking quickly before Mary could undress completely.

c.d.

[GUT]

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

Or in more, the only surprise is that she still had the chemise on.

[c.d.]

If Mary answered her door at 3:45, exclaimed "oh-murder" in annoyance at being woken in the middle of the night, and still let the person enter the room, how could they not be someone known well to her? Remember how she was dressed and where she was when found cd...that kind of intimacy = knowledge.

Cheers

If the fact that a prostitute is found in bed in a chemise surprises you, you might want to get out more.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Just pointing out Jon that we have hard evidence that Mary ran arrears before Millers Court, causing her eviction. She is obviously not the kind of person who meets her responsibilities, hence, not the type to work hungover in the rain to earn money she owes to someone else.

Cheers

Fair enough Michael.
How's about earning money so she can eat or drink?

Incidentally, I am not convinced she ran up so much debt. I suspect McCarthy saw an opportunity to make some money by exaggerating, or even inventing a debt, then there was always a chance Barnett or more likely some family member would step forward to settle it.

[Michael W Richards]

Well Michael, if you did not choose to reject the evidence, you would not need to ask the question.

Just pointing out Jon that we have hard evidence that Mary ran arrears before Millers Court, causing her eviction. She is obviously not the kind of person who meets her responsibilities, hence, not the type to work hungover in the rain to earn money she owes to someone else.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I don't think Mary went out to solicit customers. I was just wondering how the time equates to Mary knowing her killer intimately as opposed to just knowing him casually.

c.d.

If Mary answered her door at 3:45, exclaimed "oh-murder" in annoyance at being woken in the middle of the night, and still let the person enter the room, how could they not be someone known well to her? Remember how she was dressed and where she was when found cd...that kind of intimacy = knowledge.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I don't think Mary went out to solicit customers. I was just wondering how the time equates to Mary knowing her killer intimately as opposed to just knowing him casually.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

If you want to suggest Mary went out with a hangover in the rain to prostitute herself, surely you would expect to be required to provide some evidence that is within the parameters of her known history? In fact, the opposite behaviour is within that evidence.

Well Michael, if you did not choose to reject the evidence, you would not need to ask the question.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

You say that 3:45 is significant and that it indicates that Mary knew her killer intimately. What are the normal established hours for prostitution?

c.d.

3:45 is approximately the time 2 witnesses hear a cry that sounded to them as if from the courtyard, no witness we know of claimed to be that voice. That's almost certainly a sleepy Mary answering her door....since she is the only person we know of that could not claim that call the next day. No sound followed, hence no attack began with that call.

Logic suggests that a drunk Mary, with a known and established pattern of rent arrears in Millers court and in prior living quarters, came home piss drunk at 11:45 with company, she sang to him off and on until just after 1am, when her light, and the sounds, ended. Suggesting that the visitor was let out without being seen, or stayed in with Mary.

If you want to suggest Mary went out with a hangover in the rain to prostitute herself, surely you would expect to be required to provide some evidence that is within the parameters of her known history? In fact, the opposite behaviour is within that evidence.

Cheers

[Azarna]

Regarding the cry of "oh, murder".

Back in the 90s I was close friends with an old lady who lived near me. One day she was visiting and noticed my little collection of Ripper books.

She the "confessed" to me that she had worked as a prostitute in the East End in the 1930s and 40s.

She told me how she often had clients who wanted to "play ripper". Basically they would say a lot of things like "I am gonna rip you good, you whore", in a bad "Victorian cockney" voice, and she would dutifully reply "Oh, murder, oh you fiend". Then the punter would "rape" her and go back to his normal life.

She said that many of her clients had similar fantasies and asking her to pretend she was being raped or murdered was surprisingly common.

Is it possible that Kelly said "oh, murder" to please her client during their coupling? This could also be why there are claims that such cries were common around the area.

Obviously the Ripper was causing much fear at the time, and surely all prostitutes (and indeed most of the women in the area!) must have been very on-edge and aware of the potential danger. But the street-walkers had no choice but to walk the streets anyway. Whether they would have been prepared to play along with rape and murder fantasies during the height of the Ripper scare is perhaps unlikely. I don't know if such exchanges were even part of the Victorian prostitutes repertoire, especially as the majority would have had to perform whatever was required as quickly as possible.

[Rosella]

I wouldn't be too eager to blame Mrs Harvey, what may have happened is that the press had the wrong time.
The telegraphed report (the same in every newspaper) gave "seven thirty" as the time she was with Kelly, but there is a Star report that gives us "shortly after eleven o'clock".
Seven thirty could be a misprint for eleven thirty.

"As far as has been at present ascertained, the murdered woman was last seen alive shortly after eleven o'clock on Thursday night by Mrs. Harvey, a young woman who was on intimate terms with her, and who lives in New-court, Dorset-street. Mrs. Harvey says Kelly was at that time going home alone."
Star, 10 Nov.

We don't have to assume every mistake is due to a witness lying!
There are often other causes

Yes innocent mistakes are often made by witnesses. However, at the inquest Maria Harvey (who seems to have amused the court) doesn't mention any sighting of Mary Kelly after eleven pm, just that she had spent the afternoon with Mary and was in her room when Joe Barnett called, at around 7:30ish. (Could have been lying about seeing Joe.) She then left.

If she did see her after 11pm Mary seems to have popped back to her room several times in the hours before she was killed; alone, with Blotchy face, with A.M. Maybe she went out by herself to get fish and potatoes at eleven?

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You say that 3:45 is significant and that it indicates that Mary knew her killer intimately. What are the normal established hours for prostitution?

c.d.