Did Mary know her killer?

[Batman]

You seem to be living in a world where in 1888 people were not FORCED by social and environmental conditions to resort to prostitution in Whitechapel, let alone Dorset St.!

There was a widespread expansion of prostitution in that area at that time and you want people to believe she was just up to Gin Rummy with a man with a pale of ale only a few hours before she was murdered?

This isn't Beverly Hills 90210.

[Michael W Richards]

I have to admit that the number of posters who seem content to imagine Mary selling herself that last night, or talking clients into her room is entertaining. It seems a lack of evidence or previous histories mean nothing to those whose do so.

That being said, if you would like to imagine a solution for the problems faced in this thread or any other thread here, youll have to start saving imagination and spending some plain, common sense.

There is not one witness who says Mary ever took clients to her room in Millers court, even Barnett say he objected to her "working the streets"...there is not one witness who said Mary was concerned at all about arrears, and we have evidence she had done the same thing prior to this residence, and there is not one witness who claimed to be the voice calling out around 3:45, the only person who would be unable to claim it was the deceased.

All anyone has here is her bringing Blotchy home and singing off and on for over an hour, when the singing stops and the lights go out. Any supposition about what happened next is just that.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Ive wondered if McCarthy was "getting his arrears best you can" by taking sexual favors from Mary in place of cash.

It may be another reason she didn't seem too concerned about the rent.

[jason_c]

At the inquest he said as much "you get the arrears as best you can".

I think I remembered that quote from McCarthy which probably influenced my own choice of words. McCarthy wasn't an idiot. He would have dealt with all sorts of dubious tenants. He was in a far better position than any of us in knowing how best to get money off a tenant, or which tenants to be tough with and which ones he could afford to give more leeway to. A pretty faced young woman may have had more moneymaking ability than an "old hag".

[GUT]

I have for a long time suspected Kelly's "arrears" included the cost of having the window(s) fixed. The weeks she didn't pay rent had been relatively few. A few weeks missed rent payments and a broken window can suddenly mount up. It's an amount McCarthy would have deliberated upon. Was it better to chuck Kelly out, or hope she come up with the goods by whatever means?

At the inquest he said as much "you get the arrears as best you can".

[jason_c]

I have for a long time suspected Kelly's "arrears" included the cost of having the window(s) fixed. The weeks she didn't pay rent had been relatively few. A few weeks missed rent payments and a broken window can suddenly mount up. It's an amount McCarthy would have deliberated upon. Was it better to chuck Kelly out, or hope she come up with the goods by whatever means?

[Rosella]

Prostitutes are murdered by males in greater numbers than in any other profession so I suppose some clients do enjoy those fantasies. I can't imagine the Ripper's victims doing this, however, especially as he didn't seem to give them a chance to call out anything, (with the possible exception of Mary.)

[Tecs]

Regarding the cry of "oh, murder".

Back in the 90s I was close friends with an old lady who lived near me. One day she was visiting and noticed my little collection of Ripper books.

She the "confessed" to me that she had worked as a prostitute in the East End in the 1930s and 40s.

She told me how she often had clients who wanted to "play ripper". Basically they would say a lot of things like "I am gonna rip you good, you whore", in a bad "Victorian cockney" voice, and she would dutifully reply "Oh, murder, oh you fiend". Then the punter would "rape" her and go back to his normal life.

She said that many of her clients had similar fantasies and asking her to pretend she was being raped or murdered was surprisingly common.

Is it possible that Kelly said "oh, murder" to please her client during their coupling? This could also be why there are claims that such cries were common around the area.

Obviously the Ripper was causing much fear at the time, and surely all prostitutes (and indeed most of the women in the area!) must have been very on-edge and aware of the potential danger. But the street-walkers had no choice but to walk the streets anyway. Whether they would have been prepared to play along with rape and murder fantasies during the height of the Ripper scare is perhaps unlikely. I don't know if such exchanges were even part of the Victorian prostitutes repertoire, especially as the majority would have had to perform whatever was required as quickly as possible.

Hi Azarna.

I don't think anybody else has commented on this, so I'll just say one thing.

Blimey!

What a sad reflection on some men.
And a reminder that prostitutes provide a service to society. If these sad weirdos get enough kicks out of pretending and don't attack other women then I suppose we should thank them for making the streets safer for all of our women.

regards,

[The Good Michael]

I've the same sort of suspicious mind you have, and really do entertain serious doubts regarding the relationship between McCarthy and Kelly...it had occurred to me that Kelly was on a no-rent (or minimal rent) but share-the-dues kind of arrangement...perhaps with McCarthy's shop as a kind of go-between venue?

The fact she'd allegedly shared her room (albeit briefly) with another prostitute speaks to me that McCarthy was complicit in some fashion...the man has her in a room with a separate entrance directly overlooked by the back window of his chandlers storeroom for goodness sake, so he knew what was going on...

In the book: The Worst Street in London, Fiona talks about how many...most of these doss houses on Dorset had live-in prostitutes as just another way to take every penny they could from the renters. McCarthy was a slum lord and with partners owned much more than the Miller's Court property. The real question is, why would McCarthy NOT encourage prostitution if he made money off it?

Mike

[The Good Michael]

McCarthy could have come for the rent regularly EVERY Sunday morning couldn't he?

Absolutely and he could have sent Bowyer round every morning after Kelly had customers.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

why would McCarthy lie about her owing rent?

Plus its somewhat corroborated by the fact that she recently broke up with out of work Barnett who couldn't give her money?

[Spider]

But from what we know of the ripper, he only kills women, unfortunates where he has the upper hand. Would a coward like this really attack a man if trapped in a room ? McCarthy let's Kelly go for six weeks and only comes to collect the rent the exact morning she's been murdered....what an unlucky guy

McCarthy could have come for the rent regularly EVERY Sunday morning couldn't he?

[GUT]

Just because McCarthy may have been lying about the amount owed, doesn't mean money collection wasn't part of Bowyer's routine. I suspect McCarthy knew exactly what was going on with Kelly's prostitution and when she had customers.

Mike

And if so, would have had "His Man" around there next day to get a bit of the arrears.

[Wickerman]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

Collecting this weeks rent.

[The Good Michael]

If McCarthy was lying about the rent what reason would Bowyer have for discovering Kelly

Just because McCarthy may have been lying about the amount owed, doesn't mean money collection wasn't part of Bowyer's routine. I suspect McCarthy knew exactly what was going on with Kelly's prostitution and when she had customers.

Mike