Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[MrBarnett]

Talking about me has absolutely no bearing on the facts of this case at all, nor that many lust murders are alcoholics and that alcohol is what often fuels what you describe as 'nerve' with these offenders.

I can reference cases of such individuals who also do recon. Being an alcoholic is no barrier to serial offenders, even those who are both organized and disorganized serial killers. Plenty of them are.

Schwartz has a drunk JtR. Cox has a blotchy with beer and a drunk singing MJK. Plus the pubs are always hot spots for JtR related activity given his victims.

If JtR knows the streets there is no reason why he shouldn't have experienced being with a woman in the very places he murdered later in either.

Pubs are always hot spots for JTR related activity?

What on earth does that mean? You do know that there was a pub on practically every street corner in London at the time? It would have been impossible to commit a crime of any kind in the East End more than a short walk from a pub.

A few posts back you were telling us Jack was familiar with specific murder sites, and had recce'd them, now it's if. Make up your mind and give us a chance to consider your words of wisdom.

[Batman]

I didn't say you said (yawn) it was scientific, did I?

But that's your thing, isn't it? You refer to Euclid to show how clever you are, and quote Tom Wescott and Casebook dissertations as your sources.

Talking about me has absolutely no bearing on the facts of this case at all, nor that many lust murders are alcoholics and that alcohol is what often fuels what you describe as 'nerve' with these offenders.

I can reference cases of such individuals who also do recon. Being an alcoholic is no barrier to serial offenders, even those who are both organized and disorganized serial killers. Plenty of them are.

Schwartz has a drunk JtR. Cox has a blotchy with beer and a drunk singing MJK. Plus the pubs are always hot spots for JtR related activity given his victims.

If JtR knows the streets there is no reason why he shouldn't have experienced being with a woman in the very places he murdered later in either.

[MrBarnett]

That's not the full content of what I said. Also I never said it was scientific.

I didn't say you said (yawn) it was scientific, did I?

But that's your thing, isn't it? You refer to Euclid to show how clever you are, and quote Tom Wescott and Casebook dissertations as your sources.

[MrBarnett]

If she had a definite appointment for him to come by that night then there would have been no need for her to go out.

Do you have a scenario to propose that is problem free?

c.d.

C.D.,

There is no scenario that is remotely problem free. Which is why 'most likely' doesn't work.

What we do know about MJK, largely via Barnett, but to a certain extent confirmed by modern research, is that MJK worked the docks at the western end of the Highway. And we have some idea of how the sex trade there worked. Why would she have changed her way of doing business when she found herself in possession of a single room in Spitalfields?

[Batman]

So you don't know the difference between an alcoholic and someone who shares a quart of beer.

You're 'plenty of' doesn't strike me as very scientific.

That's not the full content of what I said. Also I never said it was scientific.

[c.d.]

If she had a definite appointment for him to come by that night then there would have been no need for her to go out.

Do you have a scenario to propose that is problem free?

c.d.

[MrBarnett]

Blotchy had a beer can.

Schwartz witnessed a drunk attacking stride.

Plenty of examples of lust murderers who are drunks.

Plenty of them did recon too.

Nothing surprising there one bit.

So you don't know the difference between an alcoholic and someone who shares a quart of beer.

You're 'plenty of' doesn't strike me as very scientific.

[MrBarnett]

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

Someone trying to enter through the broken window risked waking her up and having her scream.

I think she let someone in. I don't think (given her supposed fear of the Ripper) that she would have let a stranger in.

I believe that her killer had killed before and that Barnett or any other ex lover was not capable of doing what was done to her.

If she was in need of rent money and the person at the door identified himself as the man from the pub who bought her drinks I think she would have let him in especially if she thought he had any sort of money since she could no longer depend on Barnett.

I think the man she let into her room was Jack.

c.d.

Do you imagine the Ratcliffe Highway sex trade only operated in fine weather? If there was a chill in the air or a spot of rain all the unfortunates headed for home?

Did Mary decide not to go out to the pub that night because the weather was inclement? And if not, once she'd got a few rums inside her, would she have immediately headed home to her cosy hovel?

[Batman]

So why would he need to recce his locations? If he was an alcoholic, would he have even remembered them?

How familiar are you with alcoholism?

Do you think before you post?

Blotchy had a beer can.

Schwartz witnessed a drunk attacking stride.

Plenty of examples of lust murderers who are drunks.

Plenty of them did recon too.

Nothing surprising there one bit.

[c.d.]

True Sam but she had been drinking and probably would much rather have gone to sleep.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

The conditions didn't seem to deter Cox or Prater from heading out that night.

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

I didn't say it was far fetched. I questioned why you might think it the 'most likely' scenario.

Gary

Because it seems unlikely (although not impossible) that she would go out to solicit late at night when it was cold and rainy.

Someone trying to enter through the broken window risked waking her up and having her scream.

I think she let someone in. I don't think (given her supposed fear of the Ripper) that she would have let a stranger in.

I believe that her killer had killed before and that Barnett or any other ex lover was not capable of doing what was done to her.

If she was in need of rent money and the person at the door identified himself as the man from the pub who bought her drinks I think she would have let him in especially if she thought he had any sort of money since she could no longer depend on Barnett.

I think the man she let into her room was Jack.

c.d.

[MrBarnett]

Hello Mr. Barnett,

Notice that I said "in my opinion." A customer is a customer regardless of how they met. Do you think Mary spent her time on the streets 24/7? If Mary had a drinking problem it is a reasonable assumption that she spent some time in pubs. Apparently she was a somewhat attractive woman. Is it so hard to imagine that she might therefore have spoken to men and that those men might buy her drinks? If they showed an interest in her why not let them know that her services were available especially if she felt they might have some money. A casual appointment to come to her place follows. Why is that so far fetched?

c.d.

Hi CD,

I didn't say it was far fetched. I questioned why you might think it the 'most likely' scenario. Of course, it's possible, but was that how East End prostitutes generally earned their daily crust?

Gary

[MrBarnett]

His nerve was highly likely to be a lot of alcohol. JtR would be a classic lust murderer with full blown drink addiction. Most of them are. They often get liquered up before murdering.

So why would he need to recce his locations? If he was an alcoholic, would he have even remembered them?

How familiar are you with alcoholism?

Do you think before you post?

[c.d.]

Why would that be the 'most likely' scenario?

Is that how you imagine MJK operated in the Highway? She went to the Prussian Flag, say, and handed out business cards? 'Come up and see me some time' sort of thing?

Hello Mr. Barnett,

Notice that I said "in my opinion." A customer is a customer regardless of how they met. Do you think Mary spent her time on the streets 24/7? If Mary had a drinking problem it is a reasonable assumption that she spent some time in pubs. Apparently she was a somewhat attractive woman. Is it so hard to imagine that she might therefore have spoken to men and that those men might buy her drinks? If they showed an interest in her why not let them know that her services were available especially if she felt they might have some money. A casual appointment to come to her place follows. Why is that so far fetched?

c.d.