Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Just the way it was 'painted' then ?

It's a photo, not a painting.

I'm guessing you're in the small minority who believe you're looking at a little finger of a left hand ..... because that's what should be there

No. I've compared MJK1 and MJK3, and every point in the latter photograph maps onto its equivalent point in the former.

[Batman]

Flip a coin, if you gets heads twice in a row, is there a conspiracy?

Rolling snake eyes is a 2.77% probability. No conspiracy there, but hardly likely to throw a snake eyes. 97 times in a 100 you will not get it right.

Kathreen Eddowes head was also turned on her left cheek, like Kelly. Nearly 180 degrees of possibilities but let's say left or right are the only options and not facing up. So 50/50 left or right. Let's say you have a 50/50 model for the legs.

Okay so both Kelly and Eddows have their legs and heads in roughly the same position. 50/50 chance for each position. What are the chances of them both having the same postures of heads and legs?

50/100 = 1/2 = 50%
The answer is 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 = 25% chance. 3 times out of 4 will likely be different.

It's bad, not very bad, but bad. The lower probability.

Let's say the head was resting in both cases looking upwards. So 33.3% of left, right or upwards.

33.3/100 x 50/100 = 16.5% chance of random coincidence.

Basically what this tells us is that random unrelated events are less likely to account for their positions being similar. So non-random would have to explain it which seems to indicate that a common hand is responsible, although I would accept other mechanisms can account for non-random factors other than the same hand, but those would need to be explained.

[Wickerman]

Just coincidence then that Eddowes and Kelly's right legs are bent much more at the knee than their left legs?

Flip a coin, if you gets heads twice in a row, is there a conspiracy?

[Batman]

Mary Kelly's left leg has clearly been elevated by the investigators to get a better view of the wounds on that side. That second photo demonstrates they disturbed the crime scene. They were discovering pieces of her body under her. Probably looking around to see what could have been removed from her and taken away.

[packers stem]

The position of the leg doesn't change between the photographs.

Just the way it was 'painted' then ?
Clearly elevated in my view .
I'm guessing you're in the small minority who believe you're looking at a little finger of a left hand ..... because that's what should be there

[Sam Flynn]

So for what purpose did the photographer 'pose' the left leg in MJK3 do we think ?
It's clearly elevated for that photo

The position of the leg doesn't change between the photographs.

[Batman]

Yes. The killer had little choice but to work from the left hand side in both cases, so he naturally wasn't going to leave the left leg standing up and getting in his way. He stood to gain nothing from laying the right leg flat. That's not "posing", but a simple matter of practicality,

What makes you think JtR worked on Eddowes left-hand side? Her left side has a piece of detached intestine on the ground where he was supposed to be kneeling in your version. In Chapman's case, he throws intestines away from himself, not towards himself. They were tossed over her shoulder. He threw Kelly's intestines away from himself also onto the bench for example.

[packers stem]

Yes. The killer had little choice but to work from the left hand side in both cases, so he naturally wasn't going to leave the left leg standing up and getting in his way. He stood to gain nothing from laying the right leg flat. That's not "posing", but a simple matter of practicality,

So for what purpose did the photographer 'pose' the left leg in MJK3 do we think ?
It's clearly elevated for that photo

[Sam Flynn]

Just coincidence then that Eddowes and Kelly's right legs are bent much more at the knee than their left legs?

Yes. The killer had little choice but to work from the left hand side in both cases, so he naturally wasn't going to leave the left leg standing up and getting in his way. He stood to gain nothing from laying the right leg flat. That's not "posing", but a simple matter of practicality,

[Batman]

There is little about Eddowes' position that suggests that she wasn't simply left as she was when she fell.

Just coincidence then that Eddowes and Kelly's right legs are bent much more at the knee than their left legs?

[Sam Flynn]

There is little about Eddowes' position that suggests that she wasn't simply left as she was when she fell.

[Batman]

A good way of identifying a copycat is that they only know about what they are copying from what they read in the papers.

So if one finds things about MJK that don't appear in papers with the other victims, then that's a good way to demonstrate the copycat hypothesis has problems explaining how the copycat could know things.

For example, how did he know how to pose MJK? Spread-eagled, her right hand placed into her disembowelment. Her face turned towards the door. It was not as open and displayed as many of his other crimes, but she appears displayed from the crime scene photos and what he lost in a more public setting he gained in the extent of how badly she had been mutilated.

Her right arm was lying supine with her fingers closed. I think this is found in other murders. Eddowes right leg is more bent than her left leg. This seems to be how he organizing things when mutilating from their sides. The same appears to have been done to MJK. More bending on the right leg than the left.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

I don't think we should judge Kelly too harshly. He wouldn't have been allowed to see Kate while she was in her cell, and he could hardly be expected to sit around waiting for her potentially all night.

Kate had done time before, in a proper prison - Wandsworth - so a night in the cells at Bishopsgate nick wouldn't exactly have been a traumatic experience for her.

Gary

I think we can judge him for not coming forward after he hadn't heard from her after her release though Gary, wasn't his original story that he read about the victim and realized it was Kate? And lets not forget that Kate supposedly claimed she had intentions of naming someone for the murders, could that not leave her at risk if that party to be named knows it? Extenuating circumstances is my point Gary.

There are no real obstacles with the presumption that the killer of Polly likely also killed Annie. There are with a presumption that the same man also killed Liz. Or Mary. Or Martha. Kate is a question mark in my book.

[MrBarnett]

Michael,

I don't think we should judge Kelly too harshly. He wouldn't have been allowed to see Kate while she was in her cell, and he could hardly be expected to sit around waiting for her potentially all night.

Kate had done time before, in a proper prison - Wandsworth - so a night in the cells at Bishopsgate nick wouldn't exactly have been a traumatic experience for her.

Gary

I should add that her two spells in Wandsworth that we know of were for drunkenness. On one of those occasions she was banged up with her youngest child. I doubt that night in the police cells was a unique occasion, so perhaps Kelly's not unreasonable reaction would have been, "you've made your bed, lie in it".

[MrBarnett]

Michael,

I don't think we should judge Kelly too harshly. He wouldn't have been allowed to see Kate while she was in her cell, and he could hardly be expected to sit around waiting for her potentially all night.

Kate had done time before, in a proper prison - Wandsworth - so a night in the cells at Bishopsgate nick wouldn't exactly have been a traumatic experience for her.

Gary