Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor.

Not too long ago we had another debate about whether Kelly's heart was removed.
Dr. Bond wrote: "heart absent".
Where the conventional view is that he meant the heart was missing, not found - so it was taken away.

Though you insisted "absent" only meant from the body cavity.

Read what Dr. Brown said about the organs taken from Eddowes.

"The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found."

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

Do we agree now on what "absent" means?

No we dont, Dr Brown was right in what he said, but he was referring to the uterus and the kidney being found missing at the post mortem of Eddowes, which we know is correct

In relation to Kelly the term used by the doctor was "the heart was absent from the pericardium" He doesn't go onto say, and it was never found, which is what he would have said if your comparisons are to be believed. Dr Bond also makes no mention of it not being found.

Dont forget Insp Reid stating that all the organs were accounted for !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

There is one significant dissimilarity between the murder of Eddowes and Chapman which in my opinion shows that the organs from both were not removed by the same person.

If you remove Kelly from the equation on the basis that no organs were taken from her. then it makes the theory that the killer removed the organs even weaker,........

Trevor.

Not too long ago we had another debate about whether Kelly's heart was removed.
Dr. Bond wrote: "heart absent".
Where the conventional view is that he meant the heart was missing, not found - so it was taken away.

Though you insisted "absent" only meant from the body cavity.

Read what Dr. Brown said about the organs taken from Eddowes.

"The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found."

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

Do we agree now on what "absent" means?

[Batman]

including Stride?

Yeah, I would think so.

[Abby Normal]

Why would he do that? What purpose does this serve?

First of all, a few of the ripper victims have double cuts to their necks and more. In short, more than one attempt is made to cut their throats.

I strongly doubt any forensic pathologists are supporting this view that a severed carotid artery's blood flow can be stemmed from spraying by immediately tilting the head down.

The heart-pumping 350ml of blood under pressure (130+ mm Hg) through the carotid artery is instantly going to send the blood through any weak spots it can. You can even put pressure on that wound and it's going to be spraying out between fingers and any openings it can as experienced I am sure by tens of thousands of war veterans who have had to do just that.

I just don't see how this even avoids blood down their front.

Dr. Brown with Eddowes pointed out the following.

No spurting of blood on the bricks or pavement around. No marks of blood below the middle of the body. Several buttons were found in the clotted blood after the body was removed. There was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I think he understood the significance of saying there was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I know a lot of people don't want the C5 to include some victims, but the prostrate slicing of their necks is a strong connection given that most of these types of attacks are rear approaches while the target is standing.

JtR wasn't like that. That makes him identifiable. He struck when they were down.

including Stride?

[Batman]

e. Had Joe Barnett still been sharing her bed and able to support her financially, I doubt she would have taken 'paying guests' back and been murdered as a result. I imagine poor Joe had a hard time coming to terms with that.

Let's take the view that JtR knew MJK but Barnett was in the way. If the man she invited back to her home was someone she knew, then this suggests that JtR knew MJK intimately prior to Barnett or JtR was someone on the side.

It could have some explanatory power over why JtR while waiting for her, went elsewhere to find other victims in the meantime.

If this is the case, then MJK knew JtR before Nichols at the least, if not Tabram, if not Smith.

So MJKs life prior to those murders would be quite relevant in this context.

[Batman]

"While falling" is a possibility raised by the medical examiner. As for the others standing, I don't think its ruled out by any contradictory evidence. A slit throats spray can be controlled by simply tilting the chin to the chest and pressing down immediately after the cut. Doesn't seem that was the case oin all the cases, but it could have been in some. Anyone claiming that all the victims were prone when cut....see tweets from the Batcave...is just taking a stand, its not following any evidence.

Why would he do that? What purpose does this serve?

First of all, a few of the ripper victims have double cuts to their necks and more. In short, more than one attempt is made to cut their throats.

I strongly doubt any forensic pathologists are supporting this view that a severed carotid artery's blood flow can be stemmed from spraying by immediately tilting the head down.

The heart-pumping 350ml of blood under pressure (130+ mm Hg) through the carotid artery is instantly going to send the blood through any weak spots it can. You can even put pressure on that wound and it's going to be spraying out between fingers and any openings it can as experienced I am sure by tens of thousands of war veterans who have had to do just that.

I just don't see how this even avoids blood down their front.

Dr. Brown with Eddowes pointed out the following.

No spurting of blood on the bricks or pavement around. No marks of blood below the middle of the body. Several buttons were found in the clotted blood after the body was removed. There was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I think he understood the significance of saying there was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I know a lot of people don't want the C5 to include some victims, but the prostrate slicing of their necks is a strong connection given that most of these types of attacks are rear approaches while the target is standing.

JtR wasn't like that. That makes him identifiable. He struck when they were down.

[Michael W Richards]

so all those saying that the victims could have their throats cut while standing this includes Stride too-correct?

"While falling" is a possibility raised by the medical examiner. As for the others standing, I don't think its ruled out by any contradictory evidence. A slit throats spray can be controlled by simply tilting the chin to the chest and pressing down immediately after the cut. Doesn't seem that was the case oin all the cases, but it could have been in some. Anyone claiming that all the victims were prone when cut....see tweets from the Batcave...is just taking a stand, its not following any evidence.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree entirely, Harry.

Just because MJK's whole life and identity are mysteries in themselves does not make it any less likely that she was the latest victim of the serial predator operating in the vicinity at the time, who appeared to be picking on the most easily available females he encountered there. Had Joe Barnett still been sharing her bed and able to support her financially, I doubt she would have taken 'paying guests' back and been murdered as a result. I imagine poor Joe had a hard time coming to terms with that.
My instincts are that MJK was simply a victim of circumstances - unlucky enough to meet her killer in the wrong place and time, while he was finally fortunate enough to encounter a victim he could fill his boots with, because she happened to have a roof of sorts over her head and was living there alone in the November.

The theory that the woman found in that room was murdered for any kind of political motive to do with espionage, blackmail, punishment or a warning to others, strikes me as particularly silly. What did the plotters do? Engineer Joe Barnett's departure at just the right time so the woman known as MJK would be inviting strangers in [or at least be sleeping alone and vulnerable to an intruder], to coincide with a recent spate of unrelated but extremely convenient mutilation murders, onto which they could tack this indoor slaughter? Why indoors, if this was a copycat crime, meant to look like the outdoor killer had struck again?

Sadly, even if the killer could one day be identified, I'm not sure that would shed even a glimmer of light on MJK's true identity, especially if her real name was anything other than Mary Kelly. We don't even know if that's the name she went by when hooking up with Blotchy, or other potential money sources post Barnett.

Love,

Caz
X

The 2 parts I put in bold above Caz....1st, there is zero evidence that at any time, with or without Barnett.. since leaving the room the Tuesday prior to her murder, that she ever took a "paying client" into her room. Singing for over an hours isn't conventional, streetwalker, skirts raising, sex in anyones imagination.

On the second portion, "unlucky enough to meet her killer",... she was in her own room, undressed, and in bed when her "killer" attacked her...it had nothing to do with luck and everything to do with her trusting someone she shouldn't have. Since we know she was in a love triangle with 2 Joes, and we don't know who this other Joe was or what he was like other than he "treated her poorly" on occasion, ruling out something from her personal life is what seems silly.

Joes exit left her alone in the room...after Maria also moved out..that created an opportunity, it wasn't "engineered" at all.

And copycats copy acts, they don't do something that had no previous precedent. Which taking a woman apart in her own room was, something without precedent.

[caz]

Hello CD,

When I made this post (four years ago? crikey!), I must admit to playing devil's advocate. I have little doubt that the same individual who killed Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes was behind Kelly's murder. All attempts to shoehorn Kelly's lovelife and her elusive identity into the motive behind her death fall short imo. Yes, the Ripper's crimewave may have inspired "Ripper-like" copycats. There was Jane Beadmore in Gateshead and Ellen Bury in Dundee, that appear to be crimes of passion trying to imitate the Whitechapel fiend. But for one such murder to occur in the same square mile as the rest of them, following the same escalation in violence, it can only lead you to one logical conclusion.

I agree entirely, Harry.

Just because MJK's whole life and identity are mysteries in themselves does not make it any less likely that she was the latest victim of the serial predator operating in the vicinity at the time, who appeared to be picking on the most easily available females he encountered there. Had Joe Barnett still been sharing her bed and able to support her financially, I doubt she would have taken 'paying guests' back and been murdered as a result. I imagine poor Joe had a hard time coming to terms with that.

My instincts are that MJK was simply a victim of circumstances - unlucky enough to meet her killer in the wrong place and time, while he was finally fortunate enough to encounter a victim he could fill his boots with, because she happened to have a roof of sorts over her head and was living there alone in the November.

The theory that the woman found in that room was murdered for any kind of political motive to do with espionage, blackmail, punishment or a warning to others, strikes me as particularly silly. What did the plotters do? Engineer Joe Barnett's departure at just the right time so the woman known as MJK would be inviting strangers in [or at least be sleeping alone and vulnerable to an intruder], to coincide with a recent spate of unrelated but extremely convenient mutilation murders, onto which they could tack this indoor slaughter? Why indoors, if this was a copycat crime, meant to look like the outdoor killer had struck again?

Sadly, even if the killer could one day be identified, I'm not sure that would shed even a glimmer of light on MJK's true identity, especially if her real name was anything other than Mary Kelly. We don't even know if that's the name she went by when hooking up with Blotchy, or other potential money sources post Barnett.

Love,

Caz
X

[Darryl Kenyon]

Thought this might be of interest {apologies if posted before], it is from the East London Observer 17 Nov - The mutilations were of a revolting description - the throat being deeply cut, the abdomen ripped open, many of the entrails taken out, a certain organ being reported missing, and the fleshy portion of the cheeks, breasts, and thighs hacked away;

The missing organ being missing is interesting of course but the fact that the report does not mention which organ I find intriguing. Was the detail suppressed so the newspaper did not know which particular organ? Or were they under instruction not to mention it was the heart?
Also mentioning the abdomen being ripped open and the throat being deeply cut can only strengthen [in my eyes], that it was Jack.

[Abby Normal]

so all those saying that the victims could have their throats cut while standing this includes Stride too-correct?

[Harry D]

Why focus on a slight deviation from the previous killings? I think it much more important to focus on the fact that like the previous killings he removed internal organs from his victim.

c.d.

Hello CD,

When I made this post (four years ago? crikey!), I must admit to playing devil's advocate. I have little doubt that the same individual who killed Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes was behind Kelly's murder. All attempts to shoehorn Kelly's lovelife and her elusive identity into the motive behind her death fall short imo. Yes, the Ripper's crimewave may have inspired "Ripper-like" copycats. There was Jane Beadmore in Gateshead and Ellen Bury in Dundee, that appear to be crimes of passion trying to imitate the Whitechapel fiend. But for one such murder to occur in the same square mile as the rest of them, following the same escalation in violence, it can only lead you to one logical conclusion.

[Trevor Marriott]

The evidence to show they had their throats cut lying down is overwhelming.

Alternative explanation don't understand gravitational forces or arterial spray for that matter. They are hopelessly unable to account for the facts.

The victims had no blood down their fronts from their severed necks.

The blood from their neck injuries had pooled directly under their necks.

Chapman's arterial spray was found on the lower portion of the fence next to her.

Zero evidence for elevated arterial spray in any of the C5 murders.

I have posted before on why there might be no arterial spray, and if they were standing while having their throats cut, and then dropped to the ground would also answer some of your points.

You mentioned the absence of blood on clothes Dr Brown - "There was a large quantity of blood, with a part of the stomach above the left shoulder, and on the wooden fence there were smears of blood, corresponding to where the head of the deceased laid"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Low down blood splashes don't rule out death in a standing position - jets of liquid eventually arc downwards. It all depends on how far from the fence she was when the cut was made.

(On balance, I think Chapman might well have been on the ground when her throat was cut, but I wouldn't rule out the alternative.)

We can rule it out because there is no blood down her front from neck injuries.

Arcing blood from a deeply sliced neck would have displayed blood patterns on the ground with the fence.

6 spots of blood on the back wall, near where Annie's head had lain, were located about 18" off the ground and ranged in size from that of six pence to that of a pin point; About 14" off the ground, near the position of Annie's head, were clotted patches and smears of blood on the pailings of the still-intact fence; - Dr. Philips.

The blood is on the wall slightly above her head and the blood is on the fence slightly beside her head.

There are no signs of elevated blood splatter at all. No signs of arcing blood on the ground either.

The fact all the C5 had their necks sliced while prostrate is the common MO between them all.

There is simply no evidence they had their necks sliced while standing. It just isn't there at all.

[Sam Flynn]

I wrote this already and it was low down.

Low down blood splashes don't rule out death in a standing position - jets of liquid eventually arc downwards. It all depends on how far from the fence she was when the cut was made.

(On balance, I think Chapman might well have been on the ground when her throat was cut, but I wouldn't rule out the alternative.)