Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Sam Flynn]

we are certain your lines are wrong because they don't incorporate her right leg.

Eh? My lines START on her right leg, so it's included by default. Besides, those lines merely connect elements of both photos along a line of sight; they don't encompass the fields of view. You simply CAN'T get her left knee to align with the garter, the table and the viscera on the table, nor can you get the knee into the frame of MJK3. I wish you'd think things through.

[Sam Flynn]

So do these professionals and for obvious reasons. They are not just used for feeding babies. They have more functions that this. Also culturally attacks on a woman's breasts are very much a male focus of many sex attacks.

1. Komisaruk, B. R., et al. (2011). Women’s clitoris, vagina, and cervix mapped on the sensory cortex: fMRI evidence. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 8, 2822-2830.

2. Barber, N. (1995). The evolutionary psychology of physical attractiveness: Sexual selection and human morphology. Ethology and Sociobiology, 16, 395-424.

3. Ford, C. S., & Beach, F. A. (1951). Patterns of sexual behavior. New York: Harper.

4. Masters, W. H., & Johnson, V. E. (1966). Human sexual response. Boston: Little Brown.

5. Uvnas-Moberg, K. (1998). Oxytocin may mediate the benefits of positive social interaction and emotions. Psychoneuroendocrinology 23: 819-835.

I know what the breasts do, and I'm fully aware that they've been sexualused, thank you. But that doesn't mean that they're "upper sex organs".

I see you have abandoned pretending that's her knee what with the overwhelming evidence against that "100% certainty". You can't even be certain her bed wasn't moved and we are certain your lines are wrong because they don't incorporate her right leg.

I wasn't "pretending", and I haven't abandoned anything. That's not her knee, and there is no reason to suppose that the bed was moved. I'm 100% certain of both.

[Batman]

Tabram was found slumped

PC Barrett said she was sexually posed.

Kate was spread eagle like you would expect when someone wanted to mutilate her abdomen, as was Kelly. Stride was on her side. You can create your own Ripper tally if youd like, many do, but almost all of them, including yours, are based entirely on presumptions not evidence.

This claim that all abdomen mutilators leave their victims in spread eagle positions is not supported by the criminal historical record.

Tabram was semi-indoors.

That's a new one to me, "semi-indoors". Ive seen people grasp at straws, but "semi-indoors" is a new low.

The stairwell in George Yard had open balconies on it.

I just want to stop here before going on. Do you agree or disagree with the above? We can look at each if you wish.

[Batman]

Don't forget, Batman classifies boobs as "upper sex organs".

So do these professionals and for obvious reasons. They are not just used for feeding babies. They have more functions that this. Also culturally attacks on a woman's breasts are very much a male focus of many sex attacks.

1. Komisaruk, B. R., et al. (2011). Women’s clitoris, vagina, and cervix mapped on the sensory cortex: fMRI evidence. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 8, 2822-2830.

2. Barber, N. (1995). The evolutionary psychology of physical attractiveness: Sexual selection and human morphology. Ethology and Sociobiology, 16, 395-424.

3. Ford, C. S., & Beach, F. A. (1951). Patterns of sexual behavior. New York: Harper.

4. Masters, W. H., & Johnson, V. E. (1966). Human sexual response. Boston: Little Brown.

5. Uvnas-Moberg, K. (1998). Oxytocin may mediate the benefits of positive social interaction and emotions. Psychoneuroendocrinology 23: 819-835.

I see you have abandoned pretending that's her knee what with the overwhelming evidence against that "100% certainty". You can't even be certain her bed wasn't moved and we are certain your lines are wrong because they don't incorporate her right leg.

[Sam Flynn]

That's a new one to me, "semi-indoors". Ive seen people grasp at straws, but "semi-indoors" is a new low.

Don't forget, Batman classifies boobs as "upper sex organs".

[Michael W Richards]

They are still facts about the body's positions. Tabram, Eddows and Kelly were certainly in this position. Nichols was disturbed by the witnesses who found her. Stride looks likely to have been somewhat disturbed.


Tabram was found slumped, Kate was spread eagle like you would expect when someone wanted to mutilate her abdomen, as was Kelly. Stride was on her side. You can create your own Ripper tally if youd like, many do, but almost all of them, including yours, are based entirely on presumptions not evidence.

https://forum.casebook.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12865&stc=1&d=1318589587

Tabram was semi-indoors.

That's a new one to me, "semi-indoors". Ive seen people grasp at straws, but "semi-indoors" is a new low.

Chapman was murdered in a dead end backyard. Eddows in a square which would have captured him if two entrances were blocked off.

Chapmans killer could have vaulted over any of the fences in that yard, whether he would be seen isn't the issue, whether he could escape is. Kate was found in a square with 3 entrances.

Yet still the same victimology except for age. The same type of alcoholic unfortunate. Time and location also fit.

Victimology includes age, so... no to the first part, and we have already established that Mary had not been soliciting lately, and that she was living with Joe until the end of Oct and Maria until the Tuesday of that week. Being out alone soliciting fits with the target and the MO of Annie and Pollys killer.

Each of the others is more violent than the last except for Stride. This is called escalation in criminology.

Guessing that victims with mutilations are linked with other more severely injured victims isnt escalation, its an unsubstantiated theory. Until you have proof one man committed a "series" then you cant very well assume escalation can you?

Or she was drinking away her rent money like most of them were doing.

Not according to Joe.

Probably with her murderer and quite drunk.

Perhaps, and that makes Blotchy Face the #1 suspect, not someone who sought women out alone so he could kill them and mutilate their abdomens.

Mary Jane Kelly opened the door for her clients. It locks when you close it. One reason for not harvesting is that he thought he might get caught with things this time or was nearly caught with them with Eddowes.

There is NOT ONE scintilla of information that is known to exist that Mary EVER brought clients to her room, and seranding someone for over an hour doesnt count as a sex act.

Escalation can explain it.

No, escalation is a theory.

Yeah and then they wouldn't have escalated anything and taken away organs. They would have copied it, not escalated it

Again, simply your theory and opinion. I see acts that have no rational explanation and that serve no other purpose than to disfigure. I suggest you read about Annie again to see the clear and decisive differerences. The reason Annie had mutilations was so that her killer could obtain what he did. So, you suggest that kellys killer stripped flesh from her thigh to get at her heart?

You've made statements over and over again that are completely opinion based and without any substantive evidence. Maybe you better hedge your bets a bit.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I read once that Mary had the string system on her door. something about it told her friends whether she was in, or out.
Anyone remember reading something similar?
Regards Richard.

[Batman]

I believe that the body was flipped from its right side onto her back, and then moved to the center of the bed...likely by the killer... and her left hand was placed back over her abdomen after he had essentially emptied it. That's the extent of the "posing" that I can see.

JtRs bloody fingerprints are on her calf. This is congruent with him having very blood hands before holding her leg by calf.

The incremental angle differences being discussed and the suggestion that the body position was intentionally created like Eddowes was...a theory for which there is no proof by the way..and the mention of left side/right side positioning of the respective killers are just minute aspects of the greater thread question.

They are still facts about the body's positions. Tabram, Eddows and Kelly were certainly in this position. Nichols was disturbed by the witnesses who found her. Stride looks likely to have been somewhat disturbed.

https://forum.casebook.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12865&stc=1&d=1318589587

This matched Kelly. Nearly everything in the image is the same (head and legs), except her left hand was placed into her eviscerated trunk and her right arm maybe drawn in more.

Intimate indoor setting,

Tabram was semi-indoors.

dead end courtyard,

Chapman was murdered in a dead end backyard. Eddows in a square which would have captured him if two entrances were blocked off.

15 years younger a victim,

Yet still the same victimology except for age. The same type of alcoholic unfortunate. Time and location also fit.

far more violent actions without the hint of purpose,

Each of the others is more violent than the last except for Stride. This is called escalation in criminology.

victim known to be behind in the rent because she didn't go out soliciting often,

Or she was drinking away her rent money like most of them were doing.

rain, lights out and room quiet before 1:30am,

Probably with her murderer and quite drunk.

mutilated beyond easy recognition, " 'air and eyes", ...something unique again...access to body inhibited by locked room scenario, the uterus..the only organ taken twice before, left behind.

Mary Jane Kelly opened the door for her clients. It locks when you close it. One reason for not harvesting is that he thought he might get caught with things this time or was nearly caught with them with Eddowes.

This would be a dramatic departure from Polly and Annies murders, the only 2 that make absolute sense to group together. And more importantly, without the prior focus.

Escalation can explain it.

A child with paint on his hands can create art quite similar to modern art painters with extensive training.

Yeah and then they wouldn't have escalated anything and taken away organs. They would have copied it, not escalated it.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that the body was flipped from its right side onto her back, and then moved to the center of the bed...likely by the killer... and her left hand was placed back over her abdomen after he had essentially emptied it. That's the extent of the "posing" that I can see.

The incremental angle differences being discussed and the suggestion that the body position was intentionally created like Eddowes was...a theory for which there is no proof by the way..and the mention of left side/right side positioning of the respective killers are just minute aspects of the greater thread question.

Intimate indoor setting, victim killed in bed, dead end courtyard, 15 years younger a victim, far more violent actions without the hint of purpose, victim known to be behind in the rent because she didn't go out soliciting often, rain, lights out and room quiet before 1:30am, mutilated beyond easy recognition, " 'air and eyes", ...something unique again...access to body inhibited by locked room scenario, the uterus..the only organ taken twice before, left behind.

This would be a dramatic departure from Polly and Annies murders, the only 2 that make absolute sense to group together. And more importantly, without the prior focus.

A child with paint on his hands can create art quite similar to modern art painters with extensive training.

[etenguy]

I may be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere on the board that Trevor Marriott has up-dated his book and has a suspect for the MJK murder. I'm not sure if that is a stand-alone suspect or not.

[Batman]

The left knee has moved.
It became higher in relation to the table's height.
Reckon your "mystery object" is part of Mary's chemise.
Have no idea what this has to do with OP.

Exactly, it's an irrelevant detour from the point that Mary Jane Kelly is posed like Eddowes and that the chances of a copycat getting this right are slim.

Any explanation that one leg being raised up more than the other (which is also raised) are just artifacts of his ripping her can be discounted because Eddowes was ripped with him on her right side and with Kelly he was on the left side.

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=461456&postcount=572

Even have his bloody fingerprints on her right calf as he moved them into place.

[Batman]

The wider angle would also put the entire front edge of the bedside table in shot, but we don't see any of it.

Even if this were true, you still selected lines that are wrong because they don't incorporate parts of her right leg in the shot. So you selected the point that is on her leg to try and capture the table, forgoing that the image doesn't capture her right leg properly.

So what you did, by selecting one over the other, didn't make anything more correct and certainly can't be used to make big claims like "for 100% certainty that's not her left knee".

What you should have actually concluded from 'lines' is that something may have changed about the shot's contents or your methodology is incorrect, instead of omitting part of her body (which is what your lines did to her right leg).

As I have said since the start, there is good evidence they disturbed the crime scene. We know this from their very own account of entering the room and examining it. You have not considered this.

We have no professional sources doubting it's her left knee. None.

However, we don't have to worry about the bed moving, as this variable will not impact a 3D recreation of the image of her on the bed. It will only impact 2D recreations.

The 3D recreation falsifies the claim that it's anatomically impossible/camera angle impossible.

Here it is again -> https://i.imgur.com/QRlL94h.gif

Both not only possible but accurate.

Her pelvic girdle and several points of it ( pubic arch, pubic symphysis and pubic tubercle ) can be lined up with a female human skeleton/body. That's anatomically correct.

Also, the sheets have already been identified in both shots.

https://imgur.com/a/c1Vxvak

There is no sheet over her left leg. The emulsion on the picture has rubbed off. It doesn't look like a sheet compared to the sheets on the bed. Those are muscles and ligaments. You can even make out part of adductor longus.

Furthermore, if you look closely at the top of her left knee you can see the skin still on it. https://imgur.com/a/69WfItX and just below the skin you can see the cut through the epidermis, dermis, hypodermis and is through the connective tissue into muscle. That's no sheet.

[DJA]

A. No it hasn't. It's simply out of shot.

B. Why move it anyway, if there's nothing to see?

Reckon the police covered Mary up after the first photo.

The photographer then offered them a 3 for 2 deal,so they uncovered the knee again and moved the bed and table.

This thread is not the only thing unraveling around here.

[packers stem]

Why did they bother preserving the alignment between garter, mystery (not) object, the bedside table and and the viscera piled on it? To say nothing of moving the puffed up bolt of cloth that rears up so prominently between Kelly's left hand and her knee in MJK1, and which is, no doubt about it, visible from the reverse angle in MJK3.

Fact is, neither the table nor the bed was moved. The camera was almost certainly perched on that rolled up blanket (or whatever it was) behind Kelly's right leg, which would explain why the latter is so much in the foreground and slightly fuzzy in MJK3.

Cameras needed to be steady
They weren't hand held and balancing it on a bed sheet doesn't cut it at all .It would have been on a tripod as shown in depictions of the photographer in the room .
The bed would have been pushed , the table would have moved with it .
The contents of the bed and table would have remained ..... the angles wouldn't

[Sam Flynn]

Reckon your "mystery object" is part of Mary's chemise.

You may well be right.

Have no idea what this has to do with OP.

It's an old thread, and old threads have a tendency to unravel