Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Batman]

Slaughterers, horse-slaughters in particular, came first.

JTR, whoever he was, had nerve. That's all that was required. No amount of experience of the locations would have overcome a lack of nerve.

He looked both ways, listened, did what he was compelled to do, and left.

His nerve was highly likely to be a lot of alcohol. JtR would be a classic lust murderer with full blown drink addiction. Most of them are. They often get liquered up before murdering.

[MrBarnett]

The impression I get from reading about the case is that there isn't much focus on their clientele at all except looking out for couples alone. It starts with butchers, leather apron, Pizer the Jew, Jews, then goes to a medical man because of Chapman. Brown seems to indicate medical knowledge then suggests a slaughterer and finally Bond, after saying slaughterer, is only one who manages to actually get a good idea of a profile going by saying JtR is probably nice to you and looks like a normal person... i.e, your client, by which time it's too late for the C5.

At the height of the ripper murders, they are going away with him because they need their doss money but probably feel a sense of safety with him. Eddowes goes into a dark corner with him in Mitre Square. Kelly brings him to her home and gets drunk with him. She eats fish and potatoes too.

It's like they have been around him before.

This would explain why the ripper was making his own luck.

He probably knew by staying still in Mitre Square corner that the beat PC wouldn't see him and he learned that maybe from one of the unfortunates.

What sort of a murderer was likely standing in the corner in the dark with a dead woman at his feet by his own bloody hand and ahead of him a copper with a lantern standing so close to him that all the PC needs to do is walk forward a few meters and he has him?

Someone who has done it before.

Slaughterers, horse-slaughters in particular, came first.

JTR, whoever he was, had nerve. That's all that was required. No amount of experience of the locations would have overcome a lack of nerve.

He looked both ways, listened, did what he was compelled to do, and left.

[Batman]

I think people are ignoring what to my mind is the most likely scenario which is Kelly meeting her client in a pub a few days prior to her killing. He buys her drinks and she tells him to come by her place some night soon. This solves the problem of her going out late on a cold, rainy night to solicit and why she would open her door and invite her killer in.

c.d.

The impression I get from reading about the case is that there isn't much focus on their clientele at all except looking out for couples alone. It starts with butchers, leather apron, Pizer the Jew, Jews, then goes to a medical man because of Chapman. Brown seems to indicate medical knowledge then suggests a slaughterer and finally Bond, after saying slaughterer, is only one who manages to actually get a good idea of a profile going by saying JtR is probably nice to you and looks like a normal person... i.e, your client, by which time it's too late for the C5.

At the height of the ripper murders, they are going away with him because they need their doss money but probably feel a sense of safety with him. Eddowes goes into a dark corner with him in Mitre Square. Kelly brings him to her home and gets drunk with him. She eats fish and potatoes too.

It's like they have been around him before.

This would explain why the ripper was making his own luck.

He probably knew by staying still in Mitre Square corner that the beat PC wouldn't see him and he learned that maybe from one of the unfortunates.

What sort of a murderer was likely standing in the corner in the dark with a dead woman at his feet by his own bloody hand and ahead of him a copper with a lantern standing so close to him that all the PC needs to do is walk forward a few meters and he has him?

Someone who has done it before.

[MrBarnett]

IŽd rate your second option as my third, otherwise we are in total agreement.

So would I, if Joe Barnett had been gone a year, rather than a few weeks.

[Fisherman]

In order of credibility (just my opinion):

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients back to her room, charging the appropriate price.

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients into the nearest dark corner for a 4d quickie.

13, Miller's Court was a known brothel and clients made appointments to visit.

IŽd rate your second option as my third, otherwise we are in total agreement.

[MrBarnett]

I think people are ignoring what to my mind is the most likely scenario which is Kelly meeting her client in a pub a few days prior to her killing. He buys her drinks and she tells him to come by her place some night soon. This solves the problem of her going out late on a cold, rainy night to solicit and why she would open her door and invite her killer in.

c.d.

Why would that be the 'most likely' scenario?

Is that how you imagine MJK operated in the Highway? She went to the Prussian Flag, say, and handed out business cards? 'Come up and see me some time' sort of thing?

[c.d.]

I think people are ignoring what to my mind is the most likely scenario which is Kelly meeting her client in a pub a few days prior to her killing. He buys her drinks and she tells him to come by her place some night soon. This solves the problem of her going out late on a cold, rainy night to solicit and why she would open her door and invite her killer in.

c.d.

[MrBarnett]

It would only take one visit to have an idea of how to get there, how to get back out and what to look out for at that time of day, but the more the better. The streets themselves obviously more visits and experience with.

JtR would have met many women who couldn't pay their doss money and learned what they did at those hours and where they went and where they would go with their doss money after. He could learn how they avoided beats.

If PCs had kept a record of clients found in these places prior to the autumn of terror then they would have likely met the ripper.

So what might he have learned from a single previous visit to Hanbury Street? That people didn't use the hallway as a shelter?; that the residents never used the privy at the time in the morning that many workmen were leaving for work?; that very few people walked down Hanbury Street in the early morning on their way to Spitalfields Market or the City?

[Batman]

And it would take, what 10 - 20 visits to understand how often people visited these places? We're told that people often sheltered in the hallway of 29, Hanbury Street, and surely the residents occasionally used the bog. The more often you visited these places, the more likely you'd be to encounter others using them, passing through.

It would only take one visit to have an idea of how to get there, how to get back out and what to look out for at that time of day, but the more the better. The streets themselves obviously more visits and experience with.

JtR would have met many women who couldn't pay their doss money and learned what they did at those hours and where they went and where they would go with their doss money after. He could learn how they avoided beats.

If PCs had kept a record of clients found in these places prior to the autumn of terror then they would have likely met the ripper.

[MrBarnett]

Why would I think that? Steven Wright, the Suffolk Strangler comes to mind and the fact JtR was comfortable even fenced off in a Hanbury Street backyard where the public wouldn't generally go at all except for the lodgers. Same with Miller's court.

And it would take, what 10 - 20 visits to understand how often people visited these places? We're told that people often sheltered in the hallway of 29, Hanbury Street, and surely the residents occasionally used the bog. The more often you visited these places, the more likely you'd be to encounter others using them, passing through.

[MrBarnett]

In order of credibility (just my opinion):

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients back to her room, charging the appropriate price.

MJK solicited on Commercial Street etc and took her clients into the nearest dark corner for a 4d quickie.

13, Miller's Court was a known brothel and clients made appointments to visit.

[Batman]

Why would you think that?

Why would I think that? Steven Wright, the Suffolk Strangler comes to mind and the fact JtR was comfortable even fenced off in a Hanbury Street backyard where the public wouldn't generally go at all except for the lodgers. Same with Miller's court.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish,

Yes, that would be the Ratcliff Highway model, I think. Pick up your client on the street or in a pub, and then take him back to your room.

Gary

Yes. And much as not all will agree, I think that the suggestion that she did just that after having entertained Blotchy is a very credible one. To me, the more likely thing is that she made contact with her killer on the streets.

[MrBarnett]

I think that he was more than comfortable being in all these places with his victims because he had been in those very places before with others or maybe even these exact same victims. He knew everything about the place because he had been there before. Hanbury backyard, Miller's Court, Mitre Square, the lot.

Why would you think that?

[MrBarnett]

That is a good question. Then again, why would the Ripper opt for a girl selling sex in a room - he seems to have done his hunting on the streets?
Maybe the middle of the road option is that Kelly aquired her customers in the streets - she was known to parade a few of them, according to Dew - and then took them back to MillerŽs Court. Including on the night of her death.

That would make a lot of sense to me.

Hi Fish,

Yes, that would be the Ratcliff Highway model, I think. Pick up your client on the street or in a pub, and then take him back to your room.

Gary