Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Karl]

Goodness, don't let Helen Mirren or Joanna Lumley see this!

And what is your evidence for MJK being 25, apart from what she may have claimed herself?

Well, it's in her Casebook profile. Can you find any other age for her? And if she lied about her age, that still means she could pass for 25, which is actually what matters.

As for the first four victims - they could not exactly pass for stand-ins for Helen Mirren or Joanna Lumley, could they?

Oh blimey! Their killer operated at dead of night - he wasn't recruiting for Miss World with a black bag full of skimpy swimsuits.

They were close enough to converse, meaning they were close enough to clearly see what the other looked like. Dead of night is also not the case, as the times of night vary widely. Nichols was indeed killed in the dead of night (between 2-3 am, I believe), but Chapman was killed early morning. Stride and Eddowes were killed early night, when there would still have been some people about, and Kelly might have been killed as late as mid-morning. In any case, they did have light sources back then.

And indeed, he wasn't looking for Miss World - as only the first four victims testify. What was he looking for?

Of course not. Her murder was very obviously a one-off, not one of a series of similar crimes, where someone was targeting other women at random, not for who they were or for any personal motive to get shot of her.

Your argument was that if the Ripper victims were the victims of different killers, ie. if they were not victims of a serial killer, then that would place blame on the victims. Which is why I brought up OJ's wife, precisely because she was a one-off.

I still don't really get the height argument, even if it could be confirmed that MJK was significantly taller than all the other victims. A) Her killer could well have overpowered her as she was lying on her bed if he was vertically challenged; and B) there is no proof that the ripper allowed himself to be seen with any of his victims, and therefore he could have been any height at all.

A) Sure, lying prone would make you more vulnerable. But they didn't meet in bed. In other words, this would only be relevant if he only picked her out as a victim once she was in bed.
B) Proof, no. Evidence, certainly. There are numerous witness accounts providing physical descriptions of men who in greater or lesser likelihood might have been the killer.

Have you lost the plot, Karl?

It's ok to disagree, but I fail to see where I have offended you.

Love,

Clearly not.

[c.d.]

Notice "nearly the whole time" in the second story. So obviously she was not there the whole time.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

The Evening News of Oct. 1st has two different stories about when Mortimer was at her door.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact.


Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear.

Was she at her door for 30 minutes or 10 minutes?

[Wickerman]

Hello Wick,

I have no doubt that this was the case but would you need to check the time so that you were aware of when you started this activity and when you ended it? Do we know if Fanny had a watch or how she determined her times?

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Short of her hearing clock chimes at 12.30 and again at 1:00 am, we can't say.
We don't govern our day by chimes like many had to in their day.

[c.d.]

I think you'll find that standing at your door watching the world go by was the equivalent of us watching TV. Some would put a chair in the doorway and sit for hours. No reason was necessary, it was just the thing some women did when all the chores were done.

Hello Wick,

I have no doubt that this was the case but would you need to check the time so that you were aware of when you started this activity and when you ended it? Do we know if Fanny had a watch or how she determined her times?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

C.D. makes a good point, Fanny may have left her door for a short while and didn't think that worth mentioning (I haven't found anything that states why she was standing at the front door for 30 minutes - has anyone else?).

She did see Leon Goldstein, that has been corroborated. But saw or heard no-one or nothing else. Does this add strength to the speculation that Stride's killer was in the club that night?

HiEten
Fanny saw leon and the young couple (probably the same couple brown saw?) so yes it is corroborated. But she dosnt see anyone else that other witnesses do corroborate-like stride or any PCs or BS man. so what does she really add? more than likely she went inside for a few minutes a couple of times, is off on her times and or simply missed some of them.

she certainly missed seeing stride who was wandering about and she certainly missed BS man and stride together. I don't think she really ads anything important.

unless of course if you think Leon Goldstein was the ripper. hmmm.

Dosnt dew say Mortimer was the only one to see the ripper? perhaps we have a new ripper suspect. Plus hes a jew--so theres that!

[Wickerman]

C.D. makes a good point, Fanny may have left her door for a short while and didn't think that worth mentioning (I haven't found anything that states why she was standing at the front door for 30 minutes - has anyone else?).

I think you'll find that standing at your door watching the world go by was the equivalent of us watching TV. Some would put a chair in the doorway and sit for hours. No reason was necessary, it was just the thing some women did when all the chores were done.

[Darryl Kenyon]

She did see Leon Goldstein, that has been corroborated. But saw or heard no-one or nothing else. Does this add strength to the speculation that Stride's killer was in the club that night?

This is probably for another thread but I have long thought that the killer came behind Liz swiftly and silently before pulling her backwards into the yard, slitting her throat quickly before she hit the ground. So, yes I do believe there is a fair chance Jack was in the club that night, or at the least in the yard while Liz stood at the entrance.

[etenguy]

Hello etenguy,

I didn't say that it is inaccurate as in it should be discarded in its entirety. I am only saying that I don't see any reason to take it as being written in stone. I would take it with a grain of salt given her situation with her kids and sick husband and a half an hour is a fairly long time to be in one spot continually. It is possible that she only strayed from the doorway for just a few moments and either forgot that she did so or considered it not worth mentioning.

c.d.

Fanny Mortimer is a crucial witness in as much as the one person she said she saw can be corroborated - Leon Goldstein. So she must have been stood outside her door at a very important time IE Just before, or on 1am [The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.]
So the one part of her story which can be tested holds true, why doubt any other part?

C.D. makes a good point, Fanny may have left her door for a short while and didn't think that worth mentioning (I haven't found anything that states why she was standing at the front door for 30 minutes - has anyone else?).

She did see Leon Goldstein, that has been corroborated. But saw or heard no-one or nothing else. Does this add strength to the speculation that Stride's killer was in the club that night?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Following on from my last post, Fanny may be slightly out with some of her timings but the essence of her story rings true.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Fanny Mortimer is a crucial witness in as much as the one person she said she saw can be corroborated - Leon Goldstein. So she must have been stood outside her door at a very important time IE Just before, or on 1am [The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.]
So the one part of her story which can be tested holds true, why doubt any other part?

[c.d.]

Hi C.D.

Why do you speculate that the information supplied by Fanny Mortimer is inaccurate. She is quite clear where she was between 12.30am and 1.00am and equally clear that she saw or heard nothing. You are right that she may have been called away, but this is not what she states.

Hello etenguy,

I didn't say that it is inaccurate as in it should be discarded in its entirety. I am only saying that I don't see any reason to take it as being written in stone. I would take it with a grain of salt given her situation with her kids and sick husband and a half an hour is a fairly long time to be in one spot continually. It is possible that she only strayed from the doorway for just a few moments and either forgot that she did so or considered it not worth mentioning.

c.d.

[etenguy]

Hello Michael,

For the life of me, I can't understand why you take the testimony of Fanny as being the word of God himself. She had a sick husband and I believe five children. Not hard to imagine that she might have been called away from the door to look after them for a few moments.

As for Schwartz, we simply DON'T KNOW why he did not testify. Any argument to the contrary is speculation not fact.

c.d.

Hi C.D.

Why do you speculate that the information supplied by Fanny Mortimer is inaccurate. She is quite clear where she was between 12.30am and 1.00am and equally clear that she saw or heard nothing. You are right that she may have been called away, but this is not what she states.

[Wickerman]

I'm not aware of any indication that JtR was strong. The Yorkshire Ripper was slightly build, weedy looking. In fact one detective thought he looked effeminate.
Christie (of 10 Rillington Place) was also of small stature and feeble build.

[Unknown]

I doubt height had much to do with it. Men are generally much, much stronger than women. I'm only 5'9 and in the gym often and would have zero concerns about a tall woman. If Jack was pretty strong (which it seems he possessed some strength) a tall woman shouldn't pose any threat. He would presumably be far and away stronger than her still. Consider the average man is 5 times stronger than a woman even without physical conditioning.