Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Might I suggest, an argument against the later TOD and the witness statements is the "fact" that Mary was sick, as in vomiting and not keeping anything down, even a half pint 'hair of the dog'. If the autopsy found fish and chips in the stomach, which is fairly solid evidence, it makes the later 'sick' sightings less credible.

[Michael W Richards]

I suspect what Carrie Maxwell suffered from is a poor opinion of women who walked the streets, and a desire to be in the limelight.

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

Might I suggest, an argument against the later TOD and the witness statements is the "fact" that Mary was sick, as in vomiting and not keeping anything down, even a half pint 'hair of the dog'. If the autopsy found fish and chips in the stomach, which is fairly solid evidence, it makes the later 'sick' sightings less credible.

I agree. If she vomited, there would have been no trace of food in her stomach, I suppose.

[etenguy]

Has anyone actually pictured someone leaving that room in broad daylight...almost certainly covered in blood...and not being seen by anyone?

Hi Michael

I would think he was seen, possibly with some blood on him but he may have protected himself from being drenched in blood. I would guess people simply ignored him as one in a crowd of people - he would have left before anyone knew a murder had taken place.

[etenguy]

Might I suggest, an argument against the later TOD and the witness statements is the "fact" that Mary was sick, as in vomiting and not keeping anything down, even a half pint 'hair of the dog'. If the autopsy found fish and chips in the stomach, which is fairly solid evidence, it makes the later 'sick' sightings less credible.

Hi Al - this is a very good point, though she may not have emptied her whole stomach when she vomited. Another point this raises though is how soon after she had eaten the meal of potatoes and fish she was killed - on average potatoes take about an hour to be digested, suggesting she was killed within an hour of her last meal. I doubt she had potatoes and fish for breakfast, so this does suggest she was killed within an hour of her evening meal.

[etenguy]

I'm convinced (although you can't really be sure of anything in the Ripper case) that Maxwell was mistaken as to the identity of the murdered woman. Unless, as I've said before, she lied about the morning sighting to protect someone she suspected of being the culprit or knew without a doubt that was the killer. How do you explain that she described Mary as short and dark though? It's completely at odds with what Elizabeth Prater affirmed. She said that Mary was tall and "fair as a lily", and the corpse on the bed definitely looks like that of a tall woman.

Hi Marie

The problem with descriptions like short, tall, dark and fair is that they are subjective and from the perspective of the person giving the description. For example I have brown hair, most would describe me as dark haired I think, I certainly would, but others have described me as being light haired. Also, I am 5'8" - I've never been described as tall, but some describe me as short and some as average height.

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

Hi Marie

The problem with descriptions like short, tall, dark and fair is that they are subjective and from the perspective of the person giving the description. For example I have brown hair, most would describe me as dark haired I think, I certainly would, but others have described me as being light haired. Also, I am 5'8" - I've never been described as tall, but some describe me as short and some as average height.

Hi Etenguy!
You have a point.

[Wickerman]

Hi Marie

The problem with descriptions like short, tall, dark and fair is that they are subjective and from the perspective of the person giving the description. For example I have brown hair, most would describe me as dark haired I think, I certainly would, but others have described me as being light haired. Also, I am 5'8" - I've never been described as tall, but some describe me as short and some as average height.

Maxwell was said to be about 5ft 5in tall, as reported in the Morning Advertiser, Standard & Scotsman.

[Abby Normal]

No, I'm not saying Lewis was reliable, it's just that his story appears to have preceded Maxwell's, but neither one is copying the other. Both are telling a very different story of how they thought they saw Kelly that morning, and it isn't just those two, the papers have two other unnamed witnesses who claim Kelly was in the Britannia that morning.

I wonder how many of these witnesses would have told their story if it had been known from the start that Kelly had been murdered about 3:00am?
All these stories came out while the public were under the impression Kelly had been killed after 9:00am.
I'm inclined to think these are just people who saw someone similar to the deceased, but had they known the deceased was already dead by the time they saw her, they wouldn't have even mentioned it.
People have a tendency to want to help, so even if they saw someone similar they will assume it was her, not to be controversial, but to try help solve the time of her death.

Once the papers began to print the official medical opinion (that she died about 3:00am), these stories ceased. People who may have thought they had seen Kelly late Friday morning would obviously think themselves mistaken, and brushed it off as their error, saying nothing.
But, there were at least four people who had been caught up in the confusion.

hi wick
lord orsam wrote an article on the various kelly sightings in the morning analizing all the various press reports, witnesses etc. including lewis and maxwell and sorts it all out if i recall correctly. did you read it?
i couldnt find it on his website, but maybe someone could dig it up whos better at this stuff.

heres a link to his site

https://www.orsam.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Hi Al - this is a very good point, though she may not have emptied her whole stomach when she vomited. Another point this raises though is how soon after she had eaten the meal of potatoes and fish she was killed - on average potatoes take about an hour to be digested, suggesting she was killed within an hour of her last meal. I doubt she had potatoes and fish for breakfast, so this does suggest she was killed within an hour of her evening meal.

As you say Fish & potato is more like an evening meal, so as this was found only partly digested, this is consistent with an early morning murder, or at least a murder closer to supper time, than breakfast.

[Wickerman]

hi wick
lord orsam wrote an article on the various kelly sightings in the morning analizing all the various press reports, witnesses etc. including lewis and maxwell and sorts it all out if i recall correctly. did you read it?
i couldnt find it on his website, but maybe someone could dig it up whos better at this stuff.

heres a link to his site
https://www.orsam.co.uk

Thanks Abby, it doesn't sound familiar. It might help if anyone can locate a copy. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Joshua Rogan]

Maxwell was said to be about 5ft 5in tall, as reported in the Morning Advertiser, Standard & Scotsman.

Although the Echo reported that she was 5ft.

[MrBarnett]

As you say Fish & potato is more like an evening meal, so as this was found only partly digested, this is consistent with an early morning murder, or at least a murder closer to supper time, than breakfast.

Unless she scoffed some leftover takeaway from the night before.

[Wickerman]

Hi Al - this is a very good point, though she may not have emptied her whole stomach when she vomited. Another point this raises though is how soon after she had eaten the meal of potatoes and fish she was killed - on average potatoes take about an hour to be digested, suggesting she was killed within an hour of her last meal. I doubt she had potatoes and fish for breakfast, so this does suggest she was killed within an hour of her evening meal.

I think a shop on Thrawl Street was found that was an all-night eatery which could have sold fish & potato pie.
From the evidence that exists it doesn't appear Blotchy brought any supper with him, and it doesn't seem like Astrachan carried supper around looking for someone to share it with.
Which tends to suggest Kelly used whatever she earned that night to go out later and treat herself to a slap-up meal.
Mrs Kennedy claimed to see Kelly out about 3:00am, but posters tend to dismiss this sighting for a variety of reason's.
Well, Kelly had to get that supper from somewhere, somehow.

[Wickerman]

Unless she scoffed some leftover takeaway from the night before.

These people tend to live from hand to mouth. What they earn they spend and eat right away. Besides, leftovers would be digested in minutes.