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Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

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  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    According to Maxwell's police statement, she had known Mary for about 4 months, but she hadn't seen her for three weeks before their last conversation (which was, itself, only the third time they had spoken). So it wouldn't be a great surprise that - supposing it was a case of mistaken identity - she didn't see the woman she believed was Mary in the 3 days between murder and inquest.

    Intriguingly, one person who had lived through a door off the archway in Miller's Court for four months and who we know had been to the pub for a drink that Friday morning was Mrs Prater.
    Given that they were sequential witnesses at the inquest though, it seems unlikely Maxwell wouldn"t have realised her mistake.
    she didnt even know her mary very well and only had spoken to her a couple of times-mistaken identity. easy mistake by the wife of a lodging house owner who probably talked to and dealt with hundreds of different women over the course of several months.
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 05-06-2021, 08:19 PM.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

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    • Next time 9th Nov. comes around, someone here in London should see just how dark it is at 8:30 in the morning.
      Maxwell told Lloyds (Nov 11) that she was carrying her lantern.
      Regards, Jon S.

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      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

        and btw i dissmiss lewis-seems more than likely hes just am attention getter parrotting maxwells story.
        Strange though, it's Morris Lewis's account that is in the press first on Friday. Evening papers across the country were repeating Lewis's account.
        We don't see Maxwell's story until Saturday.
        Regards, Jon S.

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        • Well sunrise would have been at 07:09 on that day, so probably not dark enough to require a lantern an hour or more later.

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          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            Strange though, it's Morris Lewis's account that is in the press first on Friday. Evening papers across the country were repeating Lewis's account.
            We don't see Maxwell's story until Saturday.
            Maxwell had been working overnight and so went to bed after her sighting of Kelly.
            ​​​​​It's possible that she wasn't aware of the murder until she awoke, too late for her story to get into the evening press.

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            • Yes Thanks Joshua.

              Interesting that the Saturday morning press continue reports that are consistent with Kelly being murdered after 9:00 am. Maxwell's story is just enforces this belief.
              So up to Saturday we have Lewis claiming he saw Kelly after 8:00 in the morning, a woman of 'doubtful' reputation claims to have seen Kelly going home with another female about 5:30 am, another witness also saw Kelly drinking in the Britannia with a man around 10:00, and now Maxwell' story joins the confusion.

              For over 24 hours then, the only stories that were in the press were those that suggested Kelly had been murdered sometime late Friday morning.
              There was nothing to suggest she may have been killed earlier, not even those stories of hearing a cry of "murder". Nothing of this nature was being reported on Friday evening or Saturday morning.

              What was happening behind the scene's was the post mortem at Shoreditch mortuary. While the public were engrossed with published stories of Kelly's apparent late morning murder, the doctors at Shoreditch were entertaining an alternate scenario.

              The Saturday afternoon papers continued with the 'late' murder belief. Except, that in the afternoon press we now see Mrs Kennedy's story and her claim to hear the cry of "murder" after 3:30 am., along with similar stories from other tenants of Millers Court.
              Still, by the end of the day it was commonly understood Kelly had died sometime after 9:00 am Friday morning.

              In Lloyds Weekly, on Sunday, we see the first suggestion that Kelly may have died some hours earlier than popular belief. We read: "...in all probability the crime was committed as earlier as two or three o'clock in the morning."

              Reynolds News continue their coverage with the belief of a late morning murder.

              Then we have the Monday morning press which continues with the commonly held belief, yet also provides a hint said to be sourced from the medical men that the murder may have occurred several hours previous, without specifying a time.
              Therefore, by the time of the inquest the predominant opinion among the public, thanks to the consistency of press media was that Mary Kelly had been murdered as late as 9:00-10:00 am Friday morning, but that recent medical opinion not yet of widespread public knowledge suggested a time several hours earlier.

              Is it really any wonder why Hutchinson did not think to come forward until Monday?
              Regards, Jon S.

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              • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                It is possible, though that would mean Maxwell didn't see her MJK again after the murder to realise her mistake.
                Maybe she did? Would she report back to the police a few days or weeks later if she saw 'her' MJK again? Probably not, because she may of felt that it would make her look a bit stupid or a liar or that she may have thought she would get into trouble.
                Best Regards,

                Tristan

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                • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                  All valid points, Caz!

                  If I'm honest, I hadn't really considered that none of the locals had contemplated a daylight / indoor murderer at that point.

                  In this scenario, there must have been a moments risk when he actually exited the property though.

                  Perhaps not in terms of him attracting suspicion or being immediately apprehended, more once the murder was known and someone who had seen him leaving had put two and two together

                  I wonder if this would indicate that he was in no way known in that locale?

                  I'm just thinking that it would be safer to be "unknown male seen exiting 13 millers Court" than "Bob, the barman from the Ten Bells seen exiting millers Court".

                  Idle musings only!


                  Cheers Ms D.

                  I'm sure you are right about it being safer to be "unknown male" to any witnesses after the event, regardless of the time MJK was killed.

                  As with the other murders, if he could put just a couple of streets between himself and the crime scene before the body was even discovered, he was pretty much home and dry - especially if nobody would have known him by name or sight anyway, if they had seen him engaging with a victim, or close to a previous murder location.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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                  • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                    Maxwell was a neighbour and she knew that MJK had recently split from her boyfriend and had been working as an unfortunate since then - I think it unlikely it was a different MJK she had confused with her neighbour, unless they too were in those same circumstances.
                    Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.
                    "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                    Stefania Elisabetta
                    Animal mama and music fan.

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                    • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

                      Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.
                      No mention of the missing teeth or the plumpness either.

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                      • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

                        Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.
                        Is your name really Marie Jeanette Davies, or are you playing a role?

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                        • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

                          Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.
                          There are some discrepancies between descriptions, and there are a number of people who believe the most likely explanation for Maxwell's sighting is that Maxwell met someone she confused with MJK. This is, of course, entirely possible, although there are reasons to doubt this was the case.

                          a) Maxwell addressed the woman she spoke to by name - a common name granted.
                          b) Maxwell described the clothes Kelly was wearing, which matched those found in MJK's room.
                          c) Maxwell knew MJK had recently split from her live in lover.









                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                            No mention of the missing teeth or the plumpness either.
                            Yes, exactly.
                            "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                            Stefania Elisabetta
                            Animal mama and music fan.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                              Is your name really Marie Jeanette Davies, or are you playing a role?
                              Maybe it is, maybe not ​​​​​​.
                              "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                              Stefania Elisabetta
                              Animal mama and music fan.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                                There are some discrepancies between descriptions, and there are a number of people who believe the most likely explanation for Maxwell's sighting is that Maxwell met someone she confused with MJK. This is, of course, entirely possible, although there are reasons to doubt this was the case.

                                a) Maxwell addressed the woman she spoke to by name - a common name granted.
                                b) Maxwell described the clothes Kelly was wearing, which matched those found in MJK's room.
                                c) Maxwell knew MJK had recently split from her live in lover.








                                The problem is, looks like Maxwell was describing a totally different person. As you said, Mary Jane was a common name, often used as an alias by unfortunates in such an overcrowded area. Maybe one of Mary's friends who intended to borrow some of her clothes (just like Catherine Pickett wanted to ask her for her shawl) and knew of the window trick entered Room 13 after knocking on the door and getting no reply, and the horror she saw made her so sick she threw up in the gutter. Perhaps if this woman existed, she fleed the scene as fast as she could fearing she would be next and that's why she was never seen again. I don't know, it may be a little too far-fetched. The Norfolk letter makes me somehow suspicious of Maxwell, actually.
                                "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                                Stefania Elisabetta
                                Animal mama and music fan.

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