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Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

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  • Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

    Ok bit crazy perhaps? I think not, because it is the evidence from the Doctors who attended the victims who tell us this.
    Rigour mortis is quickened by heat. Something to do with bacteria.
    Annie Chapman was definitely killed between 05.30 and 06.00. It was a cold/cool Autumn morning. Dr Phillips examined her at the scene and said at approx 06.20 "stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but was commencing". This is at the most 50 minutes after death. At 14.00 it is reported "stiffness well marked". Body found on cold street, left in cold shed, washed and naked. Elapsed time since death 8 hrs 30 mins approx.
    Liz Stride. Definitely killed between 00.45 and 01.00. By 15.00 stiffness was, "still well marked". 14 hours later. Presumably meaning she had been stiff for some time already. She had been lying on the ground in coldness for perhaps 30 mins?
    Mary JK. Found 10.40 in warmed room. Most organs gone lots of flesh removed. According to the dissertation (Estimation of Mary Kelly T.O.D.) Dr Bond reported in an autopsy annex that Rigour mortis was starting at 14.00. If she was killed at 05.00 this is 9 hours later. Just starting?? As stated above, the cold Chapman was starting to stiffen within 50 minutes and was well stiff within 8.5 hours. Kelly was in a warm room and "starting" to stiffen after 9 hours? If she was killed between 09.00 after being seen and speaking to Caroline Maxwell, that would be 5 hours before Bond's autopsy and would fit in with the previous victims onset of R.M. If she were killed much earlier, as is widely believed, when Bond started she would have been "well marked". No wonder Bond demurred regarding T.O.D. because it was weird.

  • #2
    Rigor mortis and TOD are not an exact science, so you will find different schools of thought about this.
    I honestly can't see the murderer deviating from his usual pattern and killing that "late" into the morning, even if it was indoors.
    People were milling about and he could've been disturbed and cornered at any minute, like when Indian Harry came knocking.

    Comment


    • #3
      When we are comparing the various times of death, it is important to know that activity & temperature affect the onset of Rigor Mortis.
      If, for example the morning was cold in Hanbury Street the onset of Rigor would be delayed, however, if Chapman had an infection, or had struggled intensely when attacked, the onset of Rigor could be accelerated.
      The same contention exists with the murder of Kelly, had she struggled excessively when attacked, and what was the ambient temperature in the room.
      I wouldn't base a theory on the stated appearance of Rigor Mortis, nor the presence of Livor Mortis, nor Algor Mortis. All these factors were subject to variable conditions.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #4
        I very much appreciate the statements above and understand that the skills required to give an accurate T.O.D. for Kelly were beyond the two Doctors, considering they vastly disagreed about it. However, when you put the possibility of a 09.00 death in with the stupid delay in entering the room, which if entered immediately may have shown obvious signs of more recent action, i.e. blood dripping uncongealed, something Abberline would have known straight away. And then white wash of an inquest, it looks dodgy. Neither Doctor stated under oath what they thought was the T.O.D. And because the inquest was cut short they were never asked to. I don't get why Maxwell's statement is just ignored. Why would she lie? Yet Hutchingson's tall tale is lapped up!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello Miakaal,

          Maxwell didn't necessarily have to be lying. She simply could have been mistaken.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • #6
            The questions would grow thick and fast if MJK's time of death moved forwards a couple of hours.
            Why would the senior police, doctors and coroner want to change the time of death?
            Add. Why would the senior police officers want to disregard Maxwell?
            Why would the doctors and senior policemen want to disregard the Grapes held by Stride and seen by at least 5 people? Did they all lie?
            Why would the skins and stones seen by Constable Walter Dew be ignored at Strides inquest?
            Why would the GSG be erased and despite the word JUWES being known to Warren as Masonic, was it then bandied about he was worried about a riot?
            Why was Lawende's statement never released?
            Why, despite the fact that both Packer and Smith say they saw Stride with a man in the same place at 00.35 was one ignored and the other just noted?
            Why are some of the files related to the case still secret?
            If it were a headline in tomorrows Times, that "King Edward the VII was JtR no doubt, the files prove it!" most people on this board would be surprised, amused disappointed or disgusted. None would turn up at Buckingham palace and demand justice. And the feeble excuse of the police protecting informants is laughable. But evidence proving that JtR was a Free Mason carrying out an ancient ritual, and being covered by other Masons, would be big news even now. Because they could STILL be helping killers and villains. (Lord Lucan et al) and they do not want to come under scrutiny now any more than in 1888. I know some on this board hate the masonic connections, but there is one. Every official, doctor, coroner, senior policeman, involved in the case, was a Mason. And so was Jack.

            Comment


            • #7
              Caroline Maxwell didn't have to be lying or mistaken.

              Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time the door to Room 13 was broken open, and so, if as reported in The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
                The questions would grow thick and fast if MJK's time of death moved forwards a couple of hours.
                Why would the senior police, doctors and coroner want to change the time of death?
                Add. Why would the senior police officers want to disregard Maxwell?
                Why would the doctors and senior policemen want to disregard the Grapes held by Stride and seen by at least 5 people? Did they all lie?
                Why would the skins and stones seen by Constable Walter Dew be ignored at Strides inquest?
                Why would the GSG be erased and despite the word JUWES being known to Warren as Masonic, was it then bandied about he was worried about a riot?
                Why was Lawende's statement never released?
                Why, despite the fact that both Packer and Smith say they saw Stride with a man in the same place at 00.35 was one ignored and the other just noted?
                Why are some of the files related to the case still secret?
                If it were a headline in tomorrows Times, that "King Edward the VII was JtR no doubt, the files prove it!" most people on this board would be surprised, amused disappointed or disgusted. None would turn up at Buckingham palace and demand justice. And the feeble excuse of the police protecting informants is laughable. But evidence proving that JtR was a Free Mason carrying out an ancient ritual, and being covered by other Masons, would be big news even now. Because they could STILL be helping killers and villains. (Lord Lucan et al) and they do not want to come under scrutiny now any more than in 1888. I know some on this board hate the masonic connections, but there is one. Every official, doctor, coroner, senior policeman, involved in the case, was a Mason. And so was Jack.
                I don’t think that it’s because anyone hates Masonic connections but rather it’s the inconvenient fact that there isn’t a scintilla of evidence for a Masonic connection.

                And “Every official, Doctor....etc” Is that literally the case? Even if it was then nothing can be implied from the fact.

                “And so was Jack.”

                Jack remains an unknown and is likely to remain so.

                Utterly baseless conspiracy theorism is alive and kicking I see.

                I take it that you’ve been reading Hans Christian Robinsons ‘We Can’t Pin It On James So Let’s Try Michael’ book. Admirably shredded by David Orsam IMO.
                Regards

                Herlock



                “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Utterly baseless conspiracy theorism is alive and kicking I see.

                  Well it's true what they always say -- if you are going to pull stuff out of your ass, pull big or go home.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                    Caroline Maxwell didn't have to be lying or mistaken.

                    Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time the door to Room 13 was broken open, and so, if as reported in The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it puts the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.
                    Not quite....what the Times actually says is;

                    "the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours"
                    ​​​​

                    ​​​​​​

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My point exactly.

                      How could Phillips estimate TOD without having access to the room?
                      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                        Utterly baseless conspiracy theorism is alive and kicking I see.

                        Well it's true what they always say -- if you are going to pull stuff out of your ass, pull big or go home.

                        c.d.
                        Regards

                        Herlock



                        “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                        ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                          My point exactly.

                          How could Phillips estimate TOD without having access to the room?
                          Eer...perhaps the same way you dismiss Swanson's notes without comparing his handwriting?

                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What has one to do with the other?
                            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                              Not quite....what the Times actually says is;

                              "the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours"
                              ​​​​

                              ​​​​​​
                              Hi Joshua.
                              (all joking aside, with Simon that is)

                              The quote from the Times would be just the same as saying: "when he gained entry to the room (about 1:30pm) she had been dead some 8 or 9 hours". He just rolled it back, that's all I see him meaning. So he doesn't actually need to know her condition at 10:45, it was assumed.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment

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