Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Joshua Rogan]

I believe I recall Elizabeth Prater claimed that she knocked on Marys door around 5 or 6.

You may be thinking of Catherine Pickett (or Pickell) who said she knocked around 07:30.

Morning Advertiser 12 Nov;
"A flower-girl, named Catherine Pickell, residing in Dorset-street, states that at about 7.30 on Friday morning she called at Kelly's house to borrow a shawl, and that, though she knocked several times, she got not answer."

If true, this is late enough that Mary may have been up and about already (if still alive of course) and be at the pub having the drink which, according to Maxwell, she threw up an hour or so later.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If she was killed between 09.00 after being seen and speaking to Caroline Maxwell, that would [...]

... make Thomas Boyer's 10:45am visit to her room for the six weeks in arrears rent, something of a remarkable coincidence.
Did John McCarthy really suppose Kelly would eventually be able to pay him the outstanding amount?
How could she have paid the 29s owed, while paying the 4s 6d weekly rent, if she hadn't paid anything for 6 weeks?

It's as though the debt had been allowed to accumulate, and a deal had been done at some point in this period...

If you keep quite about the murder, we'll pay you the outstanding amount.

It's just that the outstanding amount has to be enough for McCarthy to accept the bribe.
Perhaps this is what accounts for the relatively long interlude between the double event and MJK.

[DJA]

Yep.

Been ~ 6 weeks since Stride/Eddowes.

If it was a blackmail plot,the ante had gone up ..... along with the danger ......

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, it's the 'same' 6 weeks.

But blackmail? Is that the simplest explanation?
Why not suppose something simpler, like a 'gentleman's agreement'?

[miakaal4]

If the Kelly we think was killed, wasn't, might it explain the whitewash inquest? And what the hell was going down in the East End? Talk about conspiracy! The whole MJK event is super strange.

[miakaal4]

According to encyclopaedia.com rigour mortis is slowed by coldness. Speeded by heat. Chapman in the cold was stiff within 8.5 hours. (Phillips) MJK warm room, was starting to stiffen after 9 (Bond) if killed 05.00. Don't make sense. If killed 3-4 hours later it does.

[Wickerman]

Back in post #3 we covered this.

When we are comparing the various times of death, it is important to know that activity & temperature affect the onset of Rigor Mortis.
If, for example the morning was cold in Hanbury Street the onset of Rigor would be delayed, however, if Chapman had an infection, or had struggled intensely when attacked, the onset of Rigor could be accelerated.
The same contention exists with the murder of Kelly, had she struggled excessively when attacked, and what was the ambient temperature in the room.
I wouldn't base a theory on the stated appearance of Rigor Mortis, nor the presence of Livor Mortis, nor Algor Mortis. All these factors were subject to variable conditions.

Rigor Mortis slowly appears in the smallest muscles first (fingers, toes, neck, etc.), progressing to larger muscles (biceps, thighs, chest, buttocks, etc.).
Rigor then dissipates in the reverse order to which it appeared.
When Rigor returns for a second time, it becomes permanent.
How long it takes for this process is much dependent on ambient temperature, plus internal body temp at time of death. Physical exertion at time of death counts as 'heat'.

[c.d.]

Ever notice that if you put on conspiracy glasses everything starts to look like a conspiracy? A claim with no evidence to support it can't be used as the basis for another more outlandish claim. It just doesn't work that way.

Mr. Occam must be on vacation.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Ever notice that if you put on conspiracy glasses everything starts to look like a conspiracy? A claim with no evidence to support it can't be used as the basis for another more outlandish claim. It just doesn't work that way.

Mr. Occam must be on vacation.

c.d.

yup. and in terms of these Boards, Mr Occam passed away a long time ago.

[Michael W Richards]

You may be thinking of Catherine Pickett (or Pickell) who said she knocked around 07:30.

Morning Advertiser 12 Nov;
"A flower-girl, named Catherine Pickell, residing in Dorset-street, states that at about 7.30 on Friday morning she called at Kelly's house to borrow a shawl, and that, though she knocked several times, she got not answer."

If true, this is late enough that Mary may have been up and about already (if still alive of course) and be at the pub having the drink which, according to Maxwell, she threw up an hour or so later.

Thanks Josh, I knew someone said they knocked on her door that morning. Thought I read Prater saying it.

As far as Im concerned since not one witness saw Mary leave her room or Millers Court after 11:45, she didnt. And there is nothing in the evidence that prevents one from accepting a murder around 4am...like when 2 witnesses heard a woman cry out, and no-one came forward later to say it was them. 1 woman couldnt come forward later...the one found dead in the room.

[DJA]

Mr Occam passed away a long time ago.

Never run carrying a razor lest you slip on a parsnip.

[miakaal4]

If anyone has doubts about "Doctor's expertise" they should re-read the Rose Mylett saga in the victims section. They couldn't even agree how she died!!

[Chava]

I'm assuming that what was done to Kelly would have had some effect on the behaviour of the corpse after death. Difficult surely to estimate how rigor mortis is going to behave when bits of the body are draped around the room and the whole torso has been basically filleted and left wide open. That might have taxed even the trained SOCO types of today. The fact remains that Maxwell is the only person who remembers seeing Kelly that morning. No one at the pub where she bought her 'hair of the dog' remembers seeing her. And it's not like she was a newcomer to the district that nobody knew yet. Given that the murder was discovered that morning and the identity of the victim was widely known, you'd expect witnesses would come forward sharpish if only because there was the likelihood of a drink or two and a few bob from a reporter interested in an 'I Was The Last To See Mary Jane Alive' story.

[Abby Normal]

I'm assuming that what was done to Kelly would have had some effect on the behaviour of the corpse after death. Difficult surely to estimate how rigor mortis is going to behave when bits of the body are draped around the room and the whole torso has been basically filleted and left wide open. That might have taxed even the trained SOCO types of today. The fact remains that Maxwell is the only person who remembers seeing Kelly that morning. No one at the pub where she bought her 'hair of the dog' remembers seeing her. And it's not like she was a newcomer to the district that nobody knew yet. Given that the murder was discovered that morning and the identity of the victim was widely known, you'd expect witnesses would come forward sharpish if only because there was the likelihood of a drink or two and a few bob from a reporter interested in an 'I Was The Last To See Mary Jane Alive' story.

yup. because she never went out again after blotchy. he was either the ripper, or the ripper came to her place after he left.

[Wickerman]

I'm assuming that what was done to Kelly would have had some effect on the behaviour of the corpse after death. Difficult surely to estimate how rigor mortis is going to behave when bits of the body are draped around the room and the whole torso has been basically filleted and left wide open........

That's correct, the body dissected as it was is less likely to stiffen as all the parts, the limbs & torso would cool rapidly thereby possibly delaying the onset of rigor.
Algor mortis, the temperature of the body, would be of no help for the same reason. Livor mortis, the settling of the blood in the lower extremeties can give an indication of ToD, but most of the blood would have run out on the floor, or soaked into the mattress.

You will recall, the inquest did not arrive at a time of death. We can assume with reasonable confidence that Dr. Phillips would have been unable to provide this important detail. You may remember, Dr Bond had already offered a Time of Death only based on digestion evidence, more to do with the timing of when she last ate. Take it or leave it.