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Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

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  • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

    The problem is, looks like Maxwell was describing a totally different person. As you said, Mary Jane was a common name, often used as an alias by unfortunates in such an overcrowded area. Maybe one of Mary's friends who intended to borrow some of her clothes (just like Catherine Pickett wanted to ask her for her shawl) and knew of the window trick entered Room 13 after knocking on the door and getting no reply, and the horror she saw made her so sick she threw up in the gutter. Perhaps if this woman existed, she fleed the scene as fast as she could fearing she would be next and that's why she was never seen again. I don't know, it may be a little too far-fetched. The Norfolk letter makes me somehow suspicious of Maxwell, actually.
    fascinating. but no
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 05-13-2021, 06:41 AM.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • I dont believe the idea that she mistook someone for Mary Jane Kelly is the real problem, its that Maxwell, like Hutchinson, claimed to converse with Mary during those last 12 hours before she is found. Claimed to be known by her by given name. Maxwell claimed that Mary called her "Corrie". They both claimed to be known and on friendly terms with Mary.

      Hutchinsons claim to have been friendly with her seems in contrast with the length of time he took to come forward to "help" in the investigation into her particularly brutal murder. And Maxwell, also unproven to have actually known Mary, is warned at the Inquest that her evidence has no support within the known facts of the investigation. Perhaps due to the medical estimate as to the rough TOD. Thing there is that the stomach contents and the stages of digestion of food are very telling as to when the person no longer processed food...because the systems cease to work shortly after death.
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        I dont believe the idea that she mistook someone for Mary Jane Kelly is the real problem, its that Maxwell, like Hutchinson, claimed to converse with Mary during those last 12 hours before she is found. Claimed to be known by her by given name. Maxwell claimed that Mary called her "Corrie". They both claimed to be known and on friendly terms with Mary.

        Hutchinsons claim to have been friendly with her seems in contrast with the length of time he took to come forward to "help" in the investigation into her particularly brutal murder. And Maxwell, also unproven to have actually known Mary, is warned at the Inquest that her evidence has no support within the known facts of the investigation. Perhaps due to the medical estimate as to the rough TOD. Thing there is that the stomach contents and the stages of digestion of food are very telling as to when the person no longer processed food...because the systems cease to work shortly after death.
        I have never believed in the morning sightings of Mary. IMHO, she was killed around the time the cry of: "Oh, murder" was heard. If someone else was murdered in her place and she stumbled upon the poor woman's remains when she returned to her room, I don't think she would have hung around; she simply would have taken the chance to disappear and start anew. I tend to think either Maxwell was mistaken as to the identity of the woman she knew as MJK or she was protecting someone. As far as Morris Lewis is concerned, he may have been an attention seeker or he may have parroted Maxwell's story, since he described Mary as short and dark too.
        "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

        Stefania Elisabetta
        Animal mama and music fan.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

          I have never believed in the morning sightings of Mary. IMHO, she was killed around the time the cry of: "Oh, murder" was heard. If someone else was murdered in her place and she stumbled upon the poor woman's remains when she returned to her room, I don't think she would have hung around; she simply would have taken the chance to disappear and start anew. I tend to think either Maxwell was mistaken as to the identity of the woman she knew as MJK or she was protecting someone. As far as Morris Lewis is concerned, he may have been an attention seeker or he may have parroted Maxwell's story, since he described Mary as short and dark too.
          I've always had a problem with the cry of " Oh Murder"
          It's all very melodramatic victorian music hall, and doesn't seem to me something someone would say when about to meet their end.
          It does sound more plausible for someone to cry that if walking in on a murder scene.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by spyglass View Post

            I've always had a problem with the cry of " Oh Murder"
            It's all very melodramatic victorian music hall, and doesn't seem to me something someone would say when about to meet their end.
            It does sound more plausible for someone to cry that if walking in on a murder scene.
            I don't think that Mary uttered those words when her killer was about to strike. It's possible that Jack -whoever he was- tapped at her window or knocked on her door and asked her to let him in. She was hungover and she didn't expect a visitor, so she was like: "Oh, damnit". I also find it plausible that Mary was already dead by the time the cry was heard and that someone entered her room, discovering the horror that was cast upon her. One thing I'm quite certain of is that the woman murdered in 13, Miller's Court is the one who was known as MJK, even if you can't really be sure of anything when it comes to the Ripper case.
            "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

            Stefania Elisabetta
            Animal mama and music fan.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

              I don't think that Mary uttered those words when her killer was about to strike. It's possible that Jack -whoever he was- tapped at her window or knocked on her door and asked her to let him in. She was hungover and she didn't expect a visitor, so she was like: "Oh, damnit". I also find it plausible that Mary was already dead by the time the cry was heard and that someone entered her room, discovering the horror that was cast upon her. One thing I'm quite certain of is that the woman murdered in 13, Miller's Court is the one who was known as MJK, even if you can't really be sure of anything when it comes to the Ripper case.
              Hi Marie

              I think your scenario is more plausible than suggesting Mary Jane Kelly screamed 'oh murder' at the time of the attack. Though who might be visiting MJK at that time of the morning and had access to the room - it narrows down who that could be. Presumably, you think they had reason not to report the murder, perhaps fear of personal safety. Of course, those who are less certain that the victim was the woman known as MJK might speculate if it was MJK herself who found a body early that morning.

              I still struggle to dismiss Caroline Maxwell's statement. I think it unlikely she confused who she spoke with and highly unlikely she confused the day. Especially as Lewis and the shopkeeper corroborate the person and date/time respectively. I personally would lean to a later time of death, rather than a different victim, when I contemplate how Maxwell's statement might be accurate. I'm a little on the fence but given how inaccurate the method used for determining time of death, the significant difference in the two estimates made and the level of mutilation of the body making any estimate even less reliable, I'm inclined to think those details are more likely to be inaccurate than Caroline's statement and those who corroborate her story.




              Comment


              • Originally posted by spyglass View Post

                I've always had a problem with the cry of " Oh Murder"
                It's all very melodramatic victorian music hall, and doesn't seem to me something someone would say when about to meet their end.
                It does sound more plausible for someone to cry that if walking in on a murder scene.
                Cries of Murder were reported to be pretty common at the time.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post
                  ...As far as Morris Lewis is concerned, he may have been an attention seeker or he may have parroted Maxwell's story, since he described Mary as short and dark too.
                  Morris Lewis, was a named witness in the Friday evening press telling his story of playing pitch & toss in the court.
                  Plus, one witness who saw Kelly drinking in the Britannia with Barnet at 10:00am, and another version where Kelly is drinking with another woman at 10:00am.
                  Then we have a woman of 'doubtful reputation' claimed to have seen Kelly walking home about 5:30am Friday morning.

                  Maxwell's story doesn't reach the press until Saturday morning.

                  So, for what it's worth, Maxwell's story appears to have been the last version to be published.


                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

                    I have never believed in the morning sightings of Mary. IMHO, she was killed around the time the cry of: "Oh, murder" was heard. If someone else was murdered in her place and she stumbled upon the poor woman's remains when she returned to her room, I don't think she would have hung around; she simply would have taken the chance to disappear and start anew. I tend to think either Maxwell was mistaken as to the identity of the woman she knew as MJK or she was protecting someone. As far as Morris Lewis is concerned, he may have been an attention seeker or he may have parroted Maxwell's story, since he described Mary as short and dark too.
                    It's interesting to compare versions of Maxwell's conversation.

                    Pall Mall Gazette, Nov 10:

                    Mrs Maxwell, the wife of the deputy of the lodging-house in Dorset-street, situated just opposite the court where Mary Kelly lived, said to a Central News reporter:- I assist my husband in his duties, but we live next door, at 26, Dorset-street. We stay up all night, and yesterday morning, as I was going home, carrying my lantern and other things with me, I saw the woman Kelly standing at the entrance of the court. It was then about half-past eight, and as it was unusual for her to be seen about at that hour I said to her, "Hallo, what are you doing up so early?" She said: "Oh, I'm very bad this morning. I have had the horrors. I have been drinking so much lately." I said to her: "Why don't you go and have half a pint of beer? It will put you right." She replied, "I've just had one, but I am so bad I couldn't keep it down." I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public-house talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

                    Evening News, Nov 10:

                    Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.

                    Inquest: I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."

                    I get the feeling Caroline had a conversation with some woman that morning, and decided after the fact that it had been with Mary.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                      Hi Marie

                      I think your scenario is more plausible than suggesting Mary Jane Kelly screamed 'oh murder' at the time of the attack. Though who might be visiting MJK at that time of the morning and had access to the room - it narrows down who that could be. Presumably, you think they had reason not to report the murder, perhaps fear of personal safety. Of course, those who are less certain that the victim was the woman known as MJK might speculate if it was MJK herself who found a body early that morning.

                      I still struggle to dismiss Caroline Maxwell's statement. I think it unlikely she confused who she spoke with and highly unlikely she confused the day. Especially as Lewis and the shopkeeper corroborate the person and date/time respectively. I personally would lean to a later time of death, rather than a different victim, when I contemplate how Maxwell's statement might be accurate. I'm a little on the fence but given how inaccurate the method used for determining time of death, the significant difference in the two estimates made and the level of mutilation of the body making any estimate even less reliable, I'm inclined to think those details are more likely to be inaccurate than Caroline's statement and those who corroborate her story.



                      Hi Etenguy.
                      I too don't think that Maxwell was mistaken about the day, but I tend to dismiss a later time of death, especially if, as she said, Mary was so sick she vomited. I think the time frame would be a little too tight for Jack to meet Mary, follow her home, kill her, mutilate her beyond recognition and escape Miller's Court in broad daylight without being noticed.
                      "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                      Stefania Elisabetta
                      Animal mama and music fan.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        It's interesting to compare versions of Maxwell's conversation.

                        Pall Mall Gazette, Nov 10:

                        Mrs Maxwell, the wife of the deputy of the lodging-house in Dorset-street, situated just opposite the court where Mary Kelly lived, said to a Central News reporter:- I assist my husband in his duties, but we live next door, at 26, Dorset-street. We stay up all night, and yesterday morning, as I was going home, carrying my lantern and other things with me, I saw the woman Kelly standing at the entrance of the court. It was then about half-past eight, and as it was unusual for her to be seen about at that hour I said to her, "Hallo, what are you doing up so early?" She said: "Oh, I'm very bad this morning. I have had the horrors. I have been drinking so much lately." I said to her: "Why don't you go and have half a pint of beer? It will put you right." She replied, "I've just had one, but I am so bad I couldn't keep it down." I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public-house talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

                        Evening News, Nov 10:

                        Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdenoticed.S) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected.

                        Inquest: I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."

                        I get the feeling Caroline had a conversation with some woman that morning, and decided after the fact that it had been with Mary.
                        She seems to have embellished her statement over time, or maybe it was the Evening News journalist who did that, which is absolutely possible. However, I got a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity; after all, it seems that Maxwell didn't know Mary all that well. Maybe Caroline mistook one of Mary's associates for her. There's one thing that has always rung a bell in my mind though: the Norfolk letter. What if Caroline Maxwell was trying to protect someone she cared for? Or maybe that someone found out about her suspects and threatened to kill her too.
                        "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                        Stefania Elisabetta
                        Animal mama and music fan.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                          Morris Lewis, was a named witness in the Friday evening press telling his story of playing pitch & toss in the court.
                          Plus, one witness who saw Kelly drinking in the Britannia with Barnet at 10:00am, and another version where Kelly is drinking with another woman at 10:00am.
                          Then we have a woman of 'doubtful reputation' claimed to have seen Kelly walking home about 5:30am Friday morning.

                          Maxwell's story doesn't reach the press until Saturday morning.

                          So, for what it's worth, Maxwell's story appears to have been the last version to be published.

                          Sorry, Wickerman, my mistake. However, Morris Lewis doesn't seem to be a reliable witness, even if he admitted to play pitch & toss in the Court, which was illegal. He claimed to have seen Mary carrying a bottle of milk. Perhaps it was Mrs. Maxwell he saw. Or maybe he thought that dragging himself into the inquest would have profited him in terms of publicity.
                          "So while life does remain, in memoriam I'll retain this small violet I plucked from Mother's grave."

                          Stefania Elisabetta
                          Animal mama and music fan.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Marie Jeanette Davies View Post

                            She seems to have embellished her statement over time, or maybe it was the Evening News journalist who did that, which is absolutely possible. However, I got a feeling that it was a case of mistaken identity; after all, it seems that Maxwell didn't know Mary all that well. Maybe Caroline mistook one of Mary's associates for her. There's one thing that has always rung a bell in my mind though: the Norfolk letter. What if Caroline Maxwell was trying to protect someone she cared for? Or maybe that someone found out about her suspects and threatened to kill her too.
                            I presume you mean, by shifting the apparent murder time?
                            If that be the case then perhaps the murderer suspected, or simply knew for a fact, that he'd been seen.
                            Whatever the case, this sequence at the inquest sounds very flaky to me...

                            I imagined she had been in the Britannia beer-shop at the corner of the street. I left her, saying that I could pity her feelings. I went to Bishopsgate-street to get my husband's breakfast. Returning I saw her outside the Britannia public-house, talking to a man.
                            [Coroner] This would be about what time ? - Between eight and nine o'clock. I was absent about half-an-hour. It was about a quarter to nine.
                            [Coroner] What description can you give of this man ? - I could not give you any, as they were at some distance.
                            Inspector Abberline: The distance is about sixteen yards.
                            Witness
                            : I am sure it was the deceased. I am willing to swear it.

                            Under oath, I would have thought the concept of 'swearing it', to be redundant.

                            I also find this bit in the PMG article a bit odd ...


                            I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her.

                            Apparently she thought Joe were a client of Mary's. So then why would he be living with her?
                            A live-in client who reads her the papers - perfect!
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                              I presume you mean, by shifting the apparent murder time?
                              If that be the case then perhaps the murderer suspected, or simply knew for a fact, that he'd been seen.
                              Whatever the case, this sequence at the inquest sounds very flaky to me...

                              I imagined she had been in the Britannia beer-shop at the corner of the street. I left her, saying that I could pity her feelings. I went to Bishopsgate-street to get my husband's breakfast. Returning I saw her outside the Britannia public-house, talking to a man.
                              [Coroner] This would be about what time ? - Between eight and nine o'clock. I was absent about half-an-hour. It was about a quarter to nine.
                              [Coroner] What description can you give of this man ? - I could not give you any, as they were at some distance.
                              Inspector Abberline: The distance is about sixteen yards.
                              Witness
                              : I am sure it was the deceased. I am willing to swear it.

                              Under oath, I would have thought the concept of 'swearing it', to be redundant.

                              I also find this bit in the PMG article a bit odd ...


                              I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her.

                              Apparently she thought Joe were a client of Mary's. So then why would he be living with her?
                              A live-in client who reads her the papers - perfect!
                              Maybe she meant Joe continued to give her money after moving out, as he himself said.

                              I’ve heard many witness say things like, I am telling the truth, when under oath and remember the poor lady had already been told that the coroner thought she might not be right in her evidence.
                              G U T

                              There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GUT View Post

                                Maybe she meant Joe continued to give her money after moving out, as he himself said.
                                So Caroline and Joe were friendly enough that Joe was happy to divulge details of his financial relationship with Mary, even after moving out.
                                Yet on the other hand, Caroline claims to have only ever spoken to Mary twice, who was still living at the court. Strange.

                                I’ve heard many witness say things like, I am telling the truth, when under oath and remember the poor lady had already been told that the coroner thought she might not be right in her evidence.
                                What do think more likely; that CM recognised the man outside the Britannia, but not the woman as Mary (for obvious reasons), or that she recognised Mary but not the man, and furthermore, cannot recall anything about how he looked?
                                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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