Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Ms Diddles]

Sorry!

I made a mess of that last post!

I should have written my comments in bold so they are distinguishable from Eten's original post.

You live and learn....

[Ms Diddles]

Part of me wonders if Maxwell did see the person 'she' knew as MJK but this MJK was not the MJK who was living in Millers court. Maybe a lot of prostitutes originating from Ireland used MJK as alias for punters or people they associated with?

Yeah, I think that's a possibility too.

It seems the most lucid solution.

[etenguy]

Not sure if this quote has worked???

It worked well enough, Ms Diddles.

I take your point that it would be fairly easy for MJK to disappear, if she were not the victim. It is the why. Unless she was involved in the murder - it would have to have been an opportunistic moment.

[Ms Diddles]

It worked well enough, Ms Diddles.

I take your point that it would be fairly easy for MJK to disappear, if she were not the victim. It is the why. Unless she was involved in the murder - it would have to have been an opportunistic moment.

Well she sounded pretty ground down with life.

All that "make sure you don't end up like me" stuff.

Plus the unpaid rent.

Possibly she saw it as an opportunity to leave her debts and old life behind and start afresh.

Again, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I believe happened, more that it's a possibility....

[etenguy]

So if Maxwell is to be believed what time did the murder in the morning take place I wonder? How long did it take? And then what time did the murderer leave the room?

Any ideas? It would be interesting to speculate.

Hi Los - a theoretical timescale could be:

8.30 - MJK chats with Maxwell
(despite Maxwell and Lewis thinking they saw her closer to 10.00 out drinking, we know MJK said she had no intention of more drink that morning. These 'drinking' sightings are less reliable as at a distance and no interaction)
8.45 - at Miller's Court with the murderer (perhaps he was waiting for her while she was out - fire already lit)
by 9.00 - poor MJK has been murdered.
10.00 - murderer leaves and slips into the crowd unnoticed.

Not suggesting the above happened, but a potential timeline for a later murder.

[etenguy]

Its the fire that puts real doubt in my head that the murder took place in the morning. It must have been quite the blaze to melt the spout off a kettle, so surely it would have still been going once Bowyer/the police turned up or would have been clear to them that it had been started a few hours earlier?

The delay in access to the room might have made that harder.

[etenguy]

Part of me wonders if Maxwell did see the person 'she' knew as MJK but this MJK was not the MJK who was living in Millers court. Maybe a lot of prostitutes originating from Ireland used MJK as alias for punters or people they associated with?

Maxwell was a neighbour and she knew that MJK had recently split from her boyfriend and had been working as an unfortunate since then - I think it unlikely it was a different MJK she had confused with her neighbour, unless they too were in those same circumstances.

[etenguy]

Well she sounded pretty ground down with life.

All that "make sure you don't end up like me" stuff.

Plus the unpaid rent.

Possibly she saw it as an opportunity to leave her debts and old life behind and start afresh.

Again, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I believe happened, more that it's a possibility....

It surely is. It may even have been she was scared by the murder, decide to go into hiding and then never went back.

[Ms Diddles]

It surely is. It may even have been she was scared by the murder, decide to go into hiding and then never went back.

So many possibilities, so few certainties!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Los - a theoretical timescale could be:

8.30 - MJK chats with Maxwell
(despite Maxwell and Lewis thinking they saw her closer to 10.00 out drinking, we know MJK said she had no intention of more drink that morning. These 'drinking' sightings are less reliable as at a distance and no interaction)
8.45 - at Miller's Court with the murderer (perhaps he was waiting for her while she was out - fire already lit)
by 9.00 - poor MJK has been murdered.
10.00 - murderer leaves and slips into the crowd unnoticed.

Not suggesting the above happened, but a potential timeline for a later murder.

hi eten
that dosnt work. maxwell said she saw mary talking to a man around 8:45-9:00 outside the pub.

[Abby Normal]

Maxwell was a neighbour and she knew that MJK had recently split from her boyfriend and had been working as an unfortunate since then - I think it unlikely it was a different MJK she had confused with her neighbour, unless they too were in those same circumstances.

or she heard gossip and assumed it was "her" mary kelly, which was actually someone else.

[etenguy]

hi eten
that dosnt work. maxwell said she saw mary talking to a man around 8:45-9:00 outside the pub.

Hi Abby

I was dismissing the pub sightings by Maxwell (9.00am) and Lewis (10.00am) as unreliable due to distance and lack of interaction and following MJK saying to Maxwell she was not going back for a drink as she had been ill.

[etenguy]

or she heard gossip and assumed it was "her" mary kelly, which was actually someone else.

It is possible, though that would mean Maxwell didn't see her MJK again after the murder to realise her mistake.

[Joshua Rogan]

We are led to believe Maxwell saw Kelly regularly, so if the woman she saw was not Kelly, but she saw this woman regularly, then what happened to this Lizzie Albrook, or whomever the woman was she saw. It would seem Maxwell couldn't have seen this woman over that weekend or she would have realized her error before the inquest.
Isn't that likelyhood alone sufficient cause to reject at least Lizzie Albrook as a possible candidate?
But the same caution is applicable to this other mysterious woman, who doesn't seem to appear anymore.

I'm playing devils advocate here because like I said, mistaken identity is all I can come up with, but these points argue against it.
I guess this is why the subject is left on the shelf, there just isn't a satisfactory solution.

According to Maxwell's police statement, she had known Mary for about 4 months, but she hadn't seen her for three weeks before their last conversation (which was, itself, only the third time they had spoken). So it wouldn't be a great surprise that - supposing it was a case of mistaken identity - she didn't see the woman she believed was Mary in the 3 days between murder and inquest.

Intriguingly, one person who had lived through a door off the archway in Miller's Court for four months and who we know had been to the pub for a drink that Friday morning was Mrs Prater.
Given that they were sequential witnesses at the inquest though, it seems unlikely Maxwell wouldn"t have realised her mistake.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

I was dismissing the pub sightings by Maxwell (9.00am) and Lewis (10.00am) as unreliable due to distance and lack of interaction and following MJK saying to Maxwell she was not going back for a drink as she had been ill.

but that would mean she had the right mary at 8:00am but the wrong mary at 9:00am? i think it more likely she just had the wrong mary alltogether.
and btw i dissmiss lewis-seems more than likely hes just am attention getter parrotting maxwells story.