Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Wickerman]

....
The few facts that have turned up do seem to point in a particular direction, but I can't say I'm comfortable with the implication.
All I feel comfortable in stating is that the name of the victim was not Mary Jane Kelly, and the real MJK was alive and well somewhere else.

My apologies, that last line came across as too clandestine.
What I meant is, regardless of the false name the victim chose to use, it could have been simply 'Susan Smith', what the records will show is that the real Susan Smith turned up alive and well at the end of 1888.
Researchers will continue to look for the elusive Susan Smith that died in Nov. 1888, and there will not be one.
This is the situation we have with Mary Kelly.

[Ms Diddles]

Sorry Wick,

I just re-read your post and realised that you had clearly stated that you don't know if the woman who Maxwell spoke with was the woman we know as MJK.

I should have read it more carefully....

Re the notion that Maxwell was over-playing her familiarity with MJK; It's a possibility, but again it feels like a bit of a stretch to me.

I somehow read Maxwell as being quite no-nonsense and straight forward.

I don't see her as an attention seeker or someone trying to make a drama out of a crisis.

Still, that's really just me speculating based on a very limited amount of information.

[etenguy]

I somehow read Maxwell as being quite no-nonsense and straight forward.

I don't see her as an attention seeker or someone trying to make a drama out of a crisis.

Still, that's really just me speculating based on a very limited amount of information.

This is also how Abberline described her - an experienced investigator with significant experience.

I think your earlier post is right - there was a reason she was side-lined, even if it was as banal as not wanting to challenge the doctors' competence.

[Wickerman]

Didn't Maxwell describe Kelly's dress as black with red trim?
Everyone knew Kelly by her clean white apron sh always wore - so we read.
Or at least, thats how the woman she saw was dressed.
Again, it's shame we don't have Abberline's inventory list.

[Wickerman]

There was another witness too, an unnamed woman, the Times 12th Nov.

"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk, and I had not before been there for a long time, and that she was wearing a woollen cross-over that I had not seen her wear for a considerable time". On inquiries being made at the milkshop indicated by the woman her statement was found to be correct, and the cross-over was also found in Kelly's room. Another young woman, whose name is known, has also informed the police that she is positive she saw Kelly between half-past 8 and a quarter to 9 on Friday morning."

[Wickerman]

Here it is, Daily News, 12th Nov.

"The woman Maxwell, who stated that she saw the deceased alive at half past eight on Friday morning, adheres to her story. She has also given a description of the murdered woman's dress, which she says was black, with red trimming."

[Ms Diddles]

Here it is, Daily News, 12th Nov.

"The woman Maxwell, who stated that she saw the deceased alive at half past eight on Friday morning, adheres to her story. She has also given a description of the murdered woman's dress, which she says was black, with red trimming."

Weren't some of the clothes described by Maxwell found in Millers Court after the murder too?

That would add further weight to her statement.

Something about a shawl??

Unless of course, I've imagined it!

Some posters on here seem to have encyclopaedic knowledge and an ability to recall all the minute details.

I'm afraid, I myself do not share this trait!!!

[etenguy]

While we are on this subject, there is also the fire and burnt clothes - do we think the police suggestion that this was to provide light for the mutilations is correct? That seems a strange thing to do to me, but I can think of no other plausible reason - only fanciful speculation.

[Ms Diddles]

While we are on this subject, there is also the fire and burnt clothes - do we think the police suggestion that this was to provide light for the mutilations is correct? That seems a strange thing to do to me, but I can think of no other plausible reason - only fanciful speculation.

This is definitely in the realms of fanciful speculation, but perhaps Jack worked naked to avoid getting blood on his clothes.

The fire was to stop him freezing his nuts off on a cold November night....

[etenguy]

There was another witness too, an unnamed woman, the Times 12th Nov.

[I]"Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk, and I had not before been there for a long time, and that she was wearing a woollen cross-over that I had not seen her wear for a considerable time". On inquiries being made at the milkshop indicated by the woman her statement was found to be correct, and the cross-over was also found in Kelly's room. Another young woman, whose name is known, has also informed the police that she is positive she saw Kelly between half-past 8 and a quarter to 9 on Friday morning."

And there was a report in the Echo of 10 November that MJK was seen drinking the morning of her murder, but appears not to have been taken seriously.

Another statement was made last evening by a woman, who asserted that the deceased had been seen by her alive and well, and in company with a man, at the Ringers public-house, at the corner of Dorset-street, at half-past ten yesterday morning. It seems certain, however, that this statement was either due to a mistake, or was one of those mischievous inventions which add so immensely to the labours and worries of the police.

[Abby Normal]

IMHO maxwell had the wrong person. who she thought was Mary Kelly was someone else. maurice lewis was probably an attention seeker who parrotted maxwells story and got the milk part wrong.

maxwell only knew her for a few months and with kelly freinds visiting and also staying over i think she was confused.

plus there is issues with her story and the timing.

mary kelly was so sick from drink that she throwing up. is she really going to be in any shape to be shortly at the pubs soliciting again? and timing-then bring her killer home, have a raging fire, clothes burnt, murdered/ mutilated and all this with no one hearing or seeing anything or any suspect leaving in broad daylight hours?

i dont see it. kelly was probably murdered in the middle of the night around the times the screams were heard.

[etenguy]

IMHO maxwell had the wrong person. who she thought was Mary Kelly was someone else. maurice lewis was probably an attention seeker who parrotted maxwells story and got the milk part wrong.

maxwell only knew her for a few months and with kelly freinds visiting and also staying over i think she was confused.

plus there is issues with her story and the timing.

Hi Abby

All possible, but Maxwell spoke to her and described the clothes found in MJK's room - so it would seem she saw whoever was murdered.

mary kelly was so sick from drink that she throwing up. is she really going to be in any shape to be shortly at the pubs soliciting again? and timing-then bring her killer home, have a raging fire, clothes burnt, murdered/ mutilated and all this with no one hearing or seeing anything or any suspect leaving in broad daylight hours?

It would seem very unlikely.

i dont see it. kelly was probably murdered in the middle of the night around the times the screams were heard.

Certainly the police and doctors agree with you, but who screamed 'murder' - according to the doctors MJK had her throat cut while she was sleeping off a skinful.

[Wickerman]

Weren't some of the clothes described by Maxwell found in Millers Court after the murder too?

That would add further weight to her statement.

Something about a shawl??

Maxwell at the inquest described the clothes Mary wore.

"A dark skirt, a velvet body (bodice), a maroon shawl, and no hat."

I don't recall a specific list of clothes found in her room.

[Ms Diddles]

Maxwell at the inquest described the clothes Mary wore.

"A dark skirt, a velvet body (bodice), a maroon shawl, and no hat."

I don't recall a specific list of clothes found in her room.

Yeah, I have it in my head that a maroon shawl was found at the scene of the crime, but then my memory is entirely fallible!

I'm going to have a poke about in some books to see if I can locate it.....

[Joshua Rogan]

Maxwell at the inquest described the clothes Mary wore.

"A dark skirt, a velvet body (bodice), a maroon shawl, and no hat."

I don't recall a specific list of clothes found in her room.

These are consistent with the clothes Mrs Cox described Mary wearing when she saw her with Blotchy.

Morning Advertiser 13 Nov
"The deceased had no hat on, and a red pelerine, and a dark shabby skirt."

And also with Catherine Pickett's claim that she tried to borrow Mary's red shawl on the Friday morning, but got no answer when knocking on the door of no.13

I believe only Dew described Kelly as wearing an apron, in his autobiography. I can't think of any contemporary witnesses who mentioned an apron.

"I knew Marie quite well by sight. Often I had seen her parading along Commercial Street, between Flower-and-Dean Street and Aldgate, or along Whitechapel Road. She was usually in the company of two or three of her kind, fairly neatly dressed and invariably wearing a clean white apron, but no hat."