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Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

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  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    But escaping in a hurry if need be would have to always be in the back of his mind. Would he want to make a dash for it completely naked?

    c.d.
    I agree - don't think he was naked.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

      I agree, Ms Diddles. I think it unlikely she was mistaken about the day or the person she was speaking with. It is more likely she lied than was mistaken, IMHO. There is no reason to think she was lying, quite the opposite. But then that would mean either it wasn't MJK who was killed, or it was MJK and she wasn't killed until after 9.00am, after having left Maxwell and gone back to bed.
      Yes, that's what I really struggle with.

      As stated, I find it hard to believe that Jack could have exited Millers Court in broad daylight and not been spotted.

      On fanciful days, I lean towards the conclusion that whoever it was in that room, wasn't the woman known as MJK.

      When I think like that, I admonish myself for having read far too many Agatha Christies and getting carried away though!

      I agree with Wick too that Mary Jane Kelly was likely not her real name.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        But escaping in a hurry if need be would have to always be in the back of his mind. Would he want to make a dash for it completely naked?

        c.d.
        Yeah!

        That was just fanciful speculation on my part.

        I agree it's unlikely.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
          Yes, that's what I really struggle with. As stated, I find it hard to believe that Jack could have exited Millers Court in broad daylight and not been spotted.
          I'm not sure how much of a challenge this would have been - unless he was obviously covered in blood he might simply blend in - at that point no-one would have known about the murder and would likely take little notice.

          Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
          On fanciful days, I lean towards the conclusion that whoever it was in that room, wasn't the woman known as MJK. When I think like that, I admonish myself for having read far too many Agatha Christies and getting carried away though!
          Given the very limited identification of the body, possibly not so fanciful. However, what happened to the woman known as MJK if she had not been murdered. It starts to get a bit more Agatha Christie if we start speculating that she disappeared the morning of the murder to hide from someone for some reason.

          Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
          I agree with Wick too that Mary Jane Kelly was likely not her real name.
          I would go further and say almost certainly Mary Jane Kelly was an adopted name rather than her real name.



          Comment


          • So if Maxwell is to be believed what time did the murder in the morning take place I wonder? How long did it take? And then what time did the murderer leave the room?

            Any ideas? It would be interesting to speculate.
            Best Regards,

            Tristan

            Comment


            • Its the fire that puts real doubt in my head that the murder took place in the morning. It must have been quite the blaze to melt the spout off a kettle, so surely it would have still been going once Bowyer/the police turned up or would have been clear to them that it had been started a few hours earlier?
              Best Regards,

              Tristan

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                Absolutely!

                If time of death is difficult to ascertain today, how on earth were they meant to reach an accurate conclusion back in 1888?!

                I find it hard to envision Jack emerging into the bustling Millers Court in broad daylight though.

                Even if he had cleaned up and wasn't visibly covered in blood, it would still be very risky.


                Perhaps I'm just conditioned to think of him skulking about in the shadows in the wee small hours though!

                Whichever way I look at it things, I seem to come back to the point that I find Caroline Maxwell credible.

                More so than a lot of the other witnesses.

                She's corroborated by Lewis and the shopkeeper, and she refused to be swayed when put under pressure at the inquest.

                Abberline vouches for her good character.

                I believe her.

                It's where that leads me that I struggle with!!!
                Hi Ms D,

                You may have provided the antidote to your own doubts, by describing a 'bustling' Miller's Court in broad daylight!

                If the local population was similarly conditioned by the November to think of this killer skulking about in the wee small hours looking for victims out on the street, then sleeping it off by day, they wouldn't be looking out for him by the time Mary Kelly was supposedly seen the worse for drink by Carrie Maxwell, and he wasn't likely to behave suspiciously once he left the crime scene. It was generally assumed that if the killer was seen this time, it was by Mrs Cox [Blotchy] or George Hutchinson [Del Boy], and in those wee small hours again.

                He'd have been hidden in plain sight in any bustling parts of town, as they geared up for the Lord Mayor's Procession. And I don't suppose it was a rare sight to see unfamiliar faces in and around Miller's Court in any case, given that Mary Kelly was of the 'unfortunate' class, along with other women who lived there. In fact, the full daylight hours were possibly the safest for the killer to go about his business unnoticed. And who could have predicted that he would kill the next one indoors?

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Last edited by caz; 05-06-2021, 01:26 PM.
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                Comment


                • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                  But escaping in a hurry if need be would have to always be in the back of his mind. Would he want to make a dash for it completely naked?

                  c.d.
                  Don't tempt me...
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                    Yes, that's what I really struggle with.

                    As stated, I find it hard to believe that Jack could have exited Millers Court in broad daylight and not been spotted.

                    On fanciful days, I lean towards the conclusion that whoever it was in that room, wasn't the woman known as MJK.

                    When I think like that, I admonish myself for having read far too many Agatha Christies and getting carried away though!

                    I agree with Wick too that Mary Jane Kelly was likely not her real name.
                    I do believe Joe Barnett knew his ex as MJK, although it's likely that wasn't her real name, especially if she came to the East End down on her luck, but trying to make a new life for herself. I doubt Barnett would have had any difficulty identifying her remains, having shared her room until recently. I don't believe he had anything to do with her murder, or any reason to lie about who was on that bed, so I'm left with Carrie Maxwell being oddly mistaken about who she saw, alive and in broad daylight, and had a conversation with, OR the estimated time of death was way off, in line with a murderer who typically hunted at night.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                      Its the fire that puts real doubt in my head that the murder took place in the morning. It must have been quite the blaze to melt the spout off a kettle, so surely it would have still been going once Bowyer/the police turned up or would have been clear to them that it had been started a few hours earlier?
                      bingo Los.timimg is just too tight. Maxwell said she saw mary outside the pub around 9:00am talking to a man. bowyer discovered her body at 10:45. so in that time mary and her man leave the pub, walk back to her place, start a raging fire, shes murdered and extensively mutilated, and he gets away in broad daylight without anyone seeing him? i dont think so.

                      with marys freinds coming and going I think she simply had her mistaken for someone else who she thought was Mary. she had said she only knew her for a few months and they had only spoken a couple of times.

                      the murder time in broad late morning daylight dosnt jibe with the rippers usual killing/hunting time either, and all the evidence points to her being killed in the middle of the night around the times the screams were heard.
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Part of me wonders if Maxwell did see the person 'she' knew as MJK but this MJK was not the MJK who was living in Millers court. Maybe a lot of prostitutes originating from Ireland used MJK as alias for punters or people they associated with?
                        Best Regards,

                        Tristan

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                          bingo Los.timimg is just too tight. Maxwell said she saw mary outside the pub around 9:00am talking to a man. bowyer discovered her body at 10:45. so in that time mary and her man leave the pub, walk back to her place, start a raging fire, shes murdered and extensively mutilated, and he gets away in broad daylight without anyone seeing him? i dont think so.

                          with marys freinds coming and going I think she simply had her mistaken for someone else who she thought was Mary. she had said she only knew her for a few months and they had only spoken a couple of times.

                          the murder time in broad late morning daylight dosnt jibe with the rippers usual killing/hunting time either, and all the evidence points to her being killed in the middle of the night around the times the screams were heard.
                          I agree. I just don't see how it could work? Especially not everything within a window of one hour and forty five minutes?
                          Best Regards,

                          Tristan

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            bingo Los.timimg is just too tight. Maxwell said she saw mary outside the pub around 9:00am talking to a man. bowyer discovered her body at 10:45. so in that time mary and her man leave the pub, walk back to her place, start a raging fire, shes murdered and extensively mutilated, and he gets away in broad daylight without anyone seeing him? i dont think so.
                            The Evening News on Saturday was reporting another witness who claimed to be drinking with Kelly at 10:00 Friday morning. Leaving even less time for events to unfold.
                            There seems to be a lot of cases of mistaken identity for some reason.

                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by caz View Post

                              Hi Ms D,

                              You may have provided the antidote to your own doubts, by describing a 'bustling' Miller's Court in broad daylight!

                              If the local population was similarly conditioned by the November to think of this killer skulking about in the wee small hours looking for victims out on the street, then sleeping it off by day, they wouldn't be looking out for him by the time Mary Kelly was supposedly seen the worse for drink by Carrie Maxwell, and he wasn't likely to behave suspiciously once he left the crime scene. It was generally assumed that if the killer was seen this time, it was by Mrs Cox [Blotchy] or George Hutchinson [Del Boy], and in those wee small hours again.

                              He'd have been hidden in plain sight in any bustling parts of town, as they geared up for the Lord Mayor's Procession. And I don't suppose it was a rare sight to see unfamiliar faces in and around Miller's Court in any case, given that Mary Kelly was of the 'unfortunate' class, along with other women who lived there. In fact, the full daylight hours were possibly the safest for the killer to go about his business unnoticed. And who could have predicted that he would kill the next one indoors?

                              Love,

                              Caz
                              X
                              All valid points, Caz!

                              If I'm honest, I hadn't really considered that none of the locals had contemplated a daylight / indoor murderer at that point.

                              In this scenario, there must have been a moments risk when he actually exited the property though.

                              Perhaps not in terms of him attracting suspicion or being immediately apprehended, more once the murder was known and someone who had seen him leaving had put two and two together

                              I wonder if this would indicate that he was in no way known in that locale?

                              I'm just thinking that it would be safer to be "unknown male seen exiting 13 millers Court" than "Bob, the barman from the Ten Bells seen exiting millers Court".

                              Idle musings only!



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                                I'm not sure how much of a challenge this would have been - unless he was obviously covered in blood he might simply blend in - at that point no-one would have known about the murder and would likely take little notice.



                                Given the very limited identification of the body, possibly not so fanciful. However, what happened to the woman known as MJK if she had not been murdered. It starts to get a bit more Agatha Christie if we start speculating that she disappeared the morning of the murder to hide from someone for some reason.

                                Hypothetically, I guess disappearing is easier to do if you never existed in the first place.

                                A young attractive girl would likely have certain options available.

                                If we work on the assumption that MJK was an assumed identity, she had obviously fed this story to Joe and her friends and neighbours quite successfully.

                                Who knows what else she could have covered up (other besotted admirers waiting in the wings)?

                                Yeah, I'm totally reaching here, I know!!!


                                I would go further and say almost certainly Mary Jane Kelly was an adopted name rather than her real name.


                                Not sure if this quote has worked???

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