Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

Rather depends what you're trying to do, doesn't it? If you're trying to find 'Jack the Ripper' it may not help, but if you're trying to find as much detail as possible about the history of the principal players then this is a huge part of that process. A solid and provable identification of MJK would be a phenomenal achievement.

Well said, Colin.

[Debra A]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

I'm not sure how to get to the bottom of the John/Daniel thing. Very puzzling, Robert.

[Debra A]

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

Hi Colin

I posted this earlier which is a simple list of women baptised as Catholics, named Mary, whose father was named John and who was born in Limerick.
Before the Catholic registers were indexed and released we only had a couple of candidates because we only had the names of women registered in Limerick after the 1864 Statutory birth registration was brought in in Ireland. Now we have a few more possibles, I feel, born earlier than 1864:

Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1858 Mungret Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1853 Mahoonagh Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1855 Glin Limerick Joanne Ellena
Mariam Kelly 1859 Croagh Limerick Joannis Honora
Mary Kelly 1853 St. Mary's, Limerick city Limerick John Johanna
Mary Kelly 1854 St. John's, Limerick city Limerick John Eliza
Mary Kelly 1855 Knockany and Patrickswell Limerick John Margt
Mary Jane Kellaher 1865 St. Michael's, Limerick city Limerick John Bridget
Mary Kelly 1862 Kilbehenny Limerick John Mary
Mary Kelly 1865 Ballylanders Limerick John Mary
Mariam Kelley 1861 Cahirnorry Limerick Joannes Honora
Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1862 Bruree Limerick Joaquin Maria
Maria Kelly 1863 Killeedy Limerick Joannis Maria
Maria Kelly 1864 Ballyagran Limerick, Cork Joannis Anna

Both Ancestry and FMP have the Catholic parish records now so perhaps a starting point would be to find the rest of the family/siblings for these women and see if anything leaps out? Just an idea though.

[SuspectZero]

There were no ironworks deaths that I can find...

Yes. I've found none either.

[packers stem]

There were no ironworks deaths that I can find...

[packers stem]

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

I'm on the latter and traced my lot to mayo in a few hours but Mary Kelly is proving to be much more difficult.
I've spent this evening trying to list every Davies who died in a colliery disaster around 1880 plus or minus 2 years but it's a slog to say the least lol

[Bridewell]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

I have to say I'm impressed at the teamwork on display here. I think Debs probably has the best grip of any on the whole picture. If there is such a thing as a list of most likely candidates, perhaps it could be divided up among those of us who have access to Ancestry and/or Find My Past. (I have the former but not the latter).

[Bridewell]

Indeed, but then so did "my" Mary Kelly from Bedwellty - possibly more elements, in fact. Born in Ireland (where isn't stipulated) she lived in a steel-working Welsh town near Cwmavon which, as I've noted, sounds rather like "Carmarthen/Carnarvon" to the unwary.

Thanks, Sam. It might also explain Barnett's confusion. If MJK told him she came from Cwmavon and he repeated it as Carnarvon, her reply is likely to have been something along the lines of "Not Carnarvon, silly! Cwmavon!" In recalling such an incident, he might recall that she corrected his 'Carnarvon' but not what she corrected it to, only that it was something very similar - hence (perhaps!) his introduction of Carmarthen. I think Barnett was trying to be helpful.

[Robert]

Good heavens, Debs. I've heard of "Who's Who" but this is "Who's Whose."

[Bridewell]

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

Rather depends what you're trying to do, doesn't it? If you're trying to find 'Jack the Ripper' it may not help, but if you're trying to find as much detail as possible about the history of the principal players then this is a huge part of that process. A solid and provable identification of MJK would be a phenomenal achievement.

[Debra A]

The Kilbehenny one might be worth delving a little deeper into.
Mary born 1862 and John in 1864.
I've always thought Henry might be a red herring and could be a middle name used because the father was also John..... Otherwise why Johnto or Ianto which is a Welsh variant of John.
Mothers maiden name was Mayes so that might be unusual enough to make some follow up investigation possible

Yes, definitely an interesting one.

[Debra A]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

Denis's army records say his father was John Kelly of Halkett St.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=298478&postcount=14

[Bridewell]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

Is this Brymbo Mary?

[Bridewell]

there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true.

Thanks, Miss Marple. So do I. I've long wondered if MJK and her family were itinerants and missing from the census records for that reason.

[Bridewell]

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

Father might have been working away perhaps. Absence from the census record just means he wasn't there on the night the census was taken, not necessarily that he wasn't around.