Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

This parentage where the mother's names is McCarthy was first located a good 10-15 years ago, interest in this seemed to die off for some reason. Debs would likely remember why, but if not then I too am happy it has sprung legs again.

Yes, Jon, wasn't it Sue and Andy Parlour who first mentioned that particular Mary Jane Kelly in their book in the 90's?
I don't recall any conclusion ever being reached about her. The lack of census records in Ireland meant she, like many other possibles, was almost impossible to follow up on I would think?
There's also the fact that civil registration didn't begin in Ireland until 1864 so there may be many more Limerick born Marys who we don't know about through the civil registration index because they were born before that year. I wouldn't rule out MJK being born as far back the late 1850's myself.

[SuspectZero]

Could this be our Mary?

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

This sounds interesting. The fact that you can't find a Mary who fits all the info (which wasn't much!) she gave about her past doesn't surprise me, for whatever reason(s) she was a pretty prolific liar. But that doesn't mean everything she said was untrue. The story she gave out probably was a confusing mix of fact and fiction. (It's certainly confused me! )

It's possible the "Davies" who lived next door in Wales never actually married her, it may have been a common-law marriage, which would explain the lack of any marriage records.

A lot of the rest does seem to fit. The birthdate, the names, the 7 brothers and 1 sister, the collier named Davies who lived right next door--seems to me that's a lot more like the Mary Kelly of Miller's Court than many others who have been proposed as "the" Mary.

Do you have any more information about this Mary, or even the collier Davies? You never know what you might turn up!

[Debra A]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

If it's Hubert and Bridget's daughter you are talking about, SZ, then this Mary Ann Kelly has definitely been eliminated. She married Griffith Jones and became a pub landlady:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6587

If not, apologies and carry on..

[Wickerman]

This sounds interesting. The fact that you can't find a Mary who fits all the info (which wasn't much!) she gave about her past doesn't surprise me, for whatever reason(s) she was a pretty prolific liar.

In pursing the life of a prostitute, you are often fulfilling someone else's fantasy. It shouldn't be surprising that some of them invent a more interesting past for themselves. Stride did the same if you recall.

[SuspectZero]

If it's Hubert and Bridget's daughter you are talking about, SZ, then this Mary Ann Kelly has definitely been eliminated. She married Griffith Jones and became a pub landlady:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6587

If not, apologies and carry on..

Yes it is but I'm not convinced that this is the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones.
I read the past threads and I'm not convinced yet. In my research I have come across several Hubert Kelly's married to a Bridget with a daughter named Mary.
I'm a dogged researcher and this is the strongest candidate I've ever run across, so I'm still researching.

[Debra A]

Yes it is but I'm not convinced that this is the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones.
I read the past threads and I'm not convinced yet. In my research I have come across several Hubert Kelly's married to a Bridget with a daughter named Mary.
I'm a dogged researcher and this is the strongest candidate I've ever run across, so I'm still researching.

IIRC the address on the marriage certificate confirmed it was the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones. Her father Hubert Thomas was dead by then and is named as Hubert Kelly, deceased. The certificate is not available online. Perhaps Wickerman will remember as he also saw the certificate and was satisfied it was the same woman...and he's a hard man to please.

[SuspectZero]

IIRC the address on the marriage certificate confirmed it was the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones. Her father Hubert Thomas was dead by then and is named as Hubert Kelly, deceased. The certificate is not available online. Perhaps Wickerman will remember as he also saw the certificate and was satisfied it was the same woman...and he's a hard man to please.

Have you also checked out John Kelly and Mary McCann?

[Debra A]

Have you also checked out John Kelly and Mary McCann?

No. If it's an Irish birth record then it's difficult because there are no Irish census records to cross reference anything. There are also quite a few women who might fit if we go outside Limerick.

Here's one that has a coincidental familiarity about it:

Name MARY JANE KELLY
Date of Birth 1 August 1859
Address 15 DORSET ST
Father JOHN KELLY
Mother CATHERINE MURRAY

Sponsor 2 ELIZA COOPER

[Robert]

Are folks aware of this?

http://registers.nli.ie/

It's a bit of a Marathon!

[Debra A]

Are folks aware of this?

http://registers.nli.ie/

It's a bit of a Marathon!

Excellent Robert. Thanks!

[Pcdunn]

Are folks aware of this?

http://registers.nli.ie/

It's a bit of a Marathon!

I wasn't, and I do appreciate the link. May help me break "the wall" on my father's family history. Thank you!

[SuspectZero]

No. If it's an Irish birth record then it's difficult because there are no Irish census records to cross reference anything. There are also quite a few women who might fit if we go outside Limerick.

Here's one that has a coincidental familiarity about it:

Name MARY JANE KELLY
Date of Birth 1 August 1859
Address 15 DORSET ST
Father JOHN KELLY
Mother CATHERINE MURRAY

Sponsor 2 ELIZA COOPER

Deb,
These are the parents of Marie Kelly born in 1863. One of the witnesses at their marriage was Margaret McCarty(sp.)?
I've seen the actual marriage entry.
They were married in 1863 and Marie arrived 9 months and 2 weeks later.

[Debra A]

Deb,
These are the parents of Marie Kelly born in 1863. One of the witnesses at their marriage was Margaret McCarty(sp.)?
I've seen the actual marriage entry.
They were married in 1863 and Marie arrived 9 months and 2 weeks later.

What I was meaning though SZ is if this Marie was born in Ireland there is probably not much chance of chasing her after her birth if she stayed in Ireland. The first surviving census is 1901, 40 years after her birth.

[SuspectZero]

What I was meaning though SZ is if this Marie was born in Ireland there is probably not much chance of chasing her after her birth if she stayed in Ireland. The first surviving census is 1901, 40 years after her birth.

I understand but I think she may have landed as a servant in her aunts household in England around 1881. I'm trying to backtrack her aunt. If that leads me back to her family I have a link from Ireland to England.