Limerick, the Key?

[Pcdunn]

I like this one too. Father named John, about the right age, born in County Limerick, brother also named John, but especially the mother's surname being McCarthy. It would explain how MJK was allowed to build up so much debt in rent arrears and how her landlord knew that her family were still able to contact her by letter and, indeed, how they did so.

Very interesting supposition.

[PaulWilliams]

The baptism record for the Mary Kelly with mother Anne McCarthy, copied at http://www.rootsireland.ie/, reads as follows:
Name: Mary Kelly Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 22-Apr-1864
Address: Parish/District: BALLYAGRAN
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Kelly Mother: Anne McCarthy
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: John Mullane Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Alice Hannon

So far I have been unable to match this to any Welsh records.

[SuspectZero]

I have access to Welsh census records. I'll give this a search.

[SuspectZero]

I like this one too. Father named John, about the right age, born in County Limerick, brother also named John, but especially the mother's surname being McCarthy. It would explain how MJK was allowed to build up so much debt in rent arrears and how her landlord knew that her family were still able to contact her by letter and, indeed, how they did so.

I found another Mary Kelly in the 1871 Welsh census that might qualify. She is listed as being born in 1864 in Wicklow, Ireland. Her father is John Kelly of Wicklow (Laborer) and her mother is Ellen Kelly of Dublin.
This is Mary Ann Kelly and in 1871 she has a sister, Elizabeth and 2 brothers - John & Patrick. The family is living in Flint, Wales. They are still all living in Wales in 1881 in Flint on Church St.

[SuspectZero]

Here's another interesting Find...

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

[SuspectZero]

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

Also maybe the mothers maiden name is Savage - father is James Kelly.

[SuspectZero]

And one more Kelly that might fit

And I found an Irish baptism record for Marie Kelly - birth 12/31/1863.
Father was John Kelly and Mother was Mary.

[GUT]

Also maybe the mothers maiden name is Savage - father is James Kelly.

Savage ...... How appropriate.

[curious4]

The baptism record for the Mary Kelly with mother Anne McCarthy, copied at http://www.rootsireland.ie/, reads as follows:
Name: Mary Kelly Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 22-Apr-1864
Address: Parish/District: BALLYAGRAN
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Kelly Mother: Anne McCarthy
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: John Mullane Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Alice Hannon

So far I have been unable to match this to any Welsh records.

The mother's maiden name here is interest ing, as Mary was rumoured to be related to McCarthy.
(Just realised Bridewell beat me to this -apologies)

[JadenCollins]

So Limerick is still an option.

The McCarthy thing is quite interesting! Any other records found of her mother or any other relatives with the last name McCarthy?

[SuspectZero]

So Limerick is still an option.

The McCarthy thing is quite interesting! Any other records found of her mother or any other relatives with the last name McCarthy?

Nothing. This combo or something close to it disappears. I'm still investigating the Marie Kelly. Father is John and Mother is Ann McCann.

[miss marple]

I am glad to see people running with this. A few pointers, that may help, Mary Kelly daughter of John Kelly and Anne McCarthy had two brothers John born 1866 and Peter born 1868 and a sister.Now the problems are, that all the Marys mentioned have been noted before and they may be useful, but as someone who has checked all the London and Welsh Marys on the census unless there is more than one census entry, say Wales 71, 81 or Wales 71 London 81 or if she was born or came to London consistant London entrys, nothing can be proved. That has ALWAYS been the problem with Marys, a promising lead that turns to nothing.
The prostitute Mary is sadly not the same one. I wish she was.
The methodical way to approach this is to start eliminating Limerick Marys by seeing how many stayed in Ireland and married by checking the marriage records in Limerick. I only have accessed free Familysearch.org which is not comprehensive, there are civil records and parish records. To trace a limerick Mary born 1860/5 from birth to death would be a useful start to elimate, then trace Welsh Marys born in Ireland, how many married? Then Welsh Marys born in Wales[ very few of those] Then Marys born in London.
She did not marry a Davies in Wales between 1875/81 but that does not mean she did not know a Davies, it may have been a neighbour or a friend, a story she appropriated to gain sympathy, there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true. An Irish girl with a Limerick connection brought up in Wales [ perhaps her parents were born in Limerick and she was born in Wales,[ where hundreds of irishmen emigrated to work in the ironworks or coalmines ] becoming a prostitute in Cardiff[ which had many brothels] moving to london,working in an up market West End brothel, going to France with a gentleman. All these elements are historically plausible. Her father may not have been John. She may not have had a brother in the Scots Guards, it may have been a client when she was up West. Her brother may have been in another regiment if he was a soldier. Was she accurate as to the number of her siblings? She was probably a Catholic as were all the Irish who worked the docks and as was Joe Barnett.
Thinking laterally, reseaching the families of possible leads, If she disappears in the Welsh census after 81 has she married? There are several censuses for Welsh Marys,Homfrey St Cardiff, Mumforth St Flint, Broughton Cottages, Brymbo Denbighshire and others. I have been investigating London prostitution, thats another way in.
Debra has been heroic in her efforts to trace Scots Guards.
Limerick and Welsh newspapers, that's another thing, any family mentioned?
Did she have a relative in Cardiff? what about the Cardiff Brothels? i have seen several newspaper accounts of prosecutions of brothel keepers in Cardiff in the 1880s etc etc.
Of course if she is not called Kelly we are all f****d
Start looking under Davies. Marie is good, she could be a Marie.

Miss Marple

[Wickerman]

This parentage where the mother's names is McCarthy was first located a good 10-15 years ago, interest in this seemed to die off for some reason. Debs would likely remember why, but if not then I too am happy it has sprung legs again.

[SuspectZero]

I am glad to see people running with this. A few pointers, that may help, Mary Kelly daughter of John Kelly and Anne McCarthy had two brothers John born 1866 and Peter born 1868 and a sister.Now the problems are, that all the Marys mentioned have been noted before and they may be useful, but as someone who has checked all the London and Welsh Marys on the census unless there is more than one census entry, say Wales 71, 81 or Wales 71 London 81 or if she was born or came to London consistant London entrys, nothing can be proved. That has ALWAYS been the problem with Marys, a promising lead that turns to nothing.
The prostitute Mary is sadly not the same one. I wish she was.
The methodical way to approach this is to start eliminating Limerick Marys by seeing how many stayed in Ireland and married by checking the marriage records in Limerick. I only have accessed free Familysearch.org which is not comprehensive, there are civil records and parish records. To trace a limerick Mary born 1860/5 from birth to death would be a useful start to elimate, then trace Welsh Marys born in Ireland, how many married? Then Welsh Marys born in Wales[ very few of those] Then Marys born in London.
She did not marry a Davies in Wales between 1875/81 but that does not mean she did not know a Davies, it may have been a neighbour or a friend, a story she appropriated to gain sympathy, there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true. An Irish girl with a Limerick connection brought up in Wales [ perhaps her parents were born in Limerick and she was born in Wales,[ where hundreds of irishmen emigrated to work in the ironworks or coalmines ] becoming a prostitute in Cardiff[ which had many brothels] moving to london,working in an up market West End brothel, going to France with a gentleman. All these elements are historically plausible. Her father may not have been John. She may not have had a brother in the Scots Guards, it may have been a client when she was up West. Her brother may have been in another regiment if he was a soldier. Was she accurate as to the number of her siblings? She was probably a Catholic as were all the Irish who worked the docks and as was Joe Barnett.
Thinking laterally, reseaching the families of possible leads, If she disappears in the Welsh census after 81 has she married? There are several censuses for Welsh Marys,Homfrey St Cardiff, Mumforth St Flint, Broughton Cottages, Brymbo Denbighshire and others. I have been investigating London prostitution, thats another way in.
Debra has been heroic in her efforts to trace Scots Guards.
Limerick and Welsh newspapers, that's another thing, any family mentioned?
Did she have a relative in Cardiff? what about the Cardiff Brothels? i have seen several newspaper accounts of prosecutions of brothel keepers in Cardiff in the 1880s etc etc.
Of course if she is not called Kelly we are all f****d
Start looking under Davies. Marie is good, she could be a Marie.

Miss Marple

I'll continue to pursue Marie Kelly. I have access to all of Ancestry's databases as well as British Newspapers, if that's any help.

[SuspectZero]

I also ran across a Mary that piqued my interest. She was in London in the 1881 census and she was listed as a niece of the head of household but who had a different name. The rest listed were men and were boarders. She was listed as a house servant.