Limerick, the Key?

[GUT]

Big problem is that Kelly is such a common name.

[Robert]

And then there's a Denis Kelly, born Liverpool, at 2 Wellington Terrace in 1901 and 16 WT in 1911 (Liverpool). Same man, same family, but his age goes from 32 in 1901 to 49 in 1911. His wife has put years married 19 and 1/2 (!) so I guess he was expected to remember his wedding anniversary.

[Debra A]

Will no one rid me of these turbulent Kellies?

Debs, I think I was a bit put off the 1861 Mary because she doesn't have her birth place as Liverpool, though I think I've seen Irish people travelling to Liverpool just for the baptism, so I suppose it's OK.

Interestingly, there's a Denis Kelly who says he was b c 1860 in Liverpool who was indentured into the merchant navy in 1875 for 4 years at Cardiff. Possibly the reason why there's only one of the two boys named Dennis traceable after 1871? He was discharged early in 1877 in New York.

[Robert]

Will no one rid me of these turbulent Kellies?

Debs, I think I was a bit put off the 1861 Mary because she doesn't have her birth place as Liverpool, though I think I've seen Irish people travelling to Liverpool just for the baptism, so I suppose it's OK.

[Debra A]

In 1861 there was another Mary Kelly on Halket St. She was 7 (1854) born in Monmothshire, and living with her married mother, Mary age 40 b Ireland and younger sister, ( 1866) Margaret b Pontypridd. There's no husband listed for Mary Sr.

[Debra A]

Good stuff, Debs.

I tried to find this Mary in 1861 but no luck yet.

Oh, I think Gareth was right with his 1861 entry, Robert. There's Daniel the marine store dealer and Mary his wife at Halket St with their family and daughter Mary b 1855. I'm sure, as Gareth found, that Mary is the same as the Mary and younger siblings in the union school, where she's shown as born in Liverpool c 1857 and Daniel had become a widower and was living apart from them as they were being kept by the parish authorities.

What both John and Daniel had in common was a son named Denis, although Daniel's son Denis was younger. Both boys named Denis appear on the 1871 census with their fathers. Gareth just missed John and his son Denis at Halket St.

The Denis in the South Wales borderers who was discharged from the army in 87 with 'mania' crossed out and re-defined as 'dementia' was the son of John Kelly of Halket St.

But there's a good chance Daniel and John were brothers I think, making Denis and Mary cousins.

..I think

[Robert]

Good stuff, Debs.

I tried to find this Mary in 1861 but no luck yet.

[Debra A]

I think Gareth's Llandaff MJK was born and baptised in Liverpool as it says in the 1871 census when she is in the union school.
There's a baptism in the Catholic records for 'Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette' Liverpool.
I'm not able to post the image so here is a transcript:

Die 18 Aprilis 1857 nat et die 26 Aprilis 1857 baptizat est
Maria Joanna Kelly filia Danielis + Maria Kelly

There's some more abbreviated Latin notes on the bottom but this is the main gist of the entry.

Born 18th April and baptised 26th April 1857
Mary Jane Kelly daughter of Daniel and Mary Kelly

[Debra A]

Looks like it, Debs. At least, I hope so...oh, I do hope so.

That still doesn't explain who Daniel is with the daughter Mary b 1857
Mary was Daniel's daughter and Denis (the soldier) was John's son b 1863 in St Mary's Cardiff.
Denis and Mary may have been cousins though.

[Robert]

Looks like it, Debs. At least, I hope so...oh, I do hope so.

[Debra A]

Oh blimey!!!

Well, obviously Bridget cannot have been given birth by a 58-year-old Eliza, so I assume she was Margaret's - unless John's wife Mary alternated her name with "Margaret" as people often interchange first and second names - there is a John Kelly aged 26, wife Margaret 28 and daughter Bridget 1 at Waterloo Place, Cardiff St John in 1851. All born Ireland.

I did wonder if Margaret died and John remarried but I can find no Margaret Kelly dying Cardiff.

It's my opinion that when they came over they brought two of everything - two of themselves and two Halkett Streets.

Hi Robert
I think Margaret may be Elizabeth's daughter in law? (she's supposedly a widow too)and Bridget and Patrick are Margaret's children, Elizabeth's grandchildren. There's no man to support either woman as they are on parish relief.
Then John is with with Mary and their three sons, Dennis (the soldier), John and Daniel in the next household.
The families are living next door to each other in 1881 too.

[Robert]

Scrub that, Debs - I misread your 1871 as 1861.

[Robert]

Oh blimey!!!

Well, obviously Bridget cannot have been given birth by a 58-year-old Eliza, so I assume she was Margaret's - unless John's wife Mary alternated her name with "Margaret" as people often interchange first and second names - there is a John Kelly aged 26, wife Margaret 28 and daughter Bridget 1 at Waterloo Place, Cardiff St John in 1851. All born Ireland.

I did wonder if Margaret died and John remarried but I can find no Margaret Kelly dying Cardiff.

It's my opinion that when they came over they brought two of everything - two of themselves and two Halkett Streets.

[Debra A]

Denis seems to have died 1913. I haven't found him in 1901 (I'm assuming he was then in the asylum for in 1911 he seems to be in the asylum but with age ten years too young).

I think I found an alternative listing to the one found by Gareth for this family in 1871.
The soldier Denis, listed with his father John and mother Mary and brothers John and Daniel in 1881 (plus what may be extended family) were also at Halkett St in 1871.

Halkett St
Eliza B Kelly head widow 69 on parish relief b Ireland
Margaret Kelly dau 30 wid on parish relief b Ireland
Bridget Kelly dau 11 on parish relief b Canton Glamorgan
Patrick son 5 b Canton Glamorgan
May ?arrington lodger 63 hawker b Ireland

John Kelly head 38 labourer b Ireland
Mary Kelly wife 37 b Ireland
Denis(h) son 8 b Canton
John son 4 b Canton
Daniel son 3 mos b Canton

[Robert]

Denis seems to have died 1913. I haven't found him in 1901 (I'm assuming he was then in the asylum for in 1911 he seems to be in the asylum but with age ten years too young).