Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

Yes, that struck me too, Debs. Why the long delay? Missing records? Prison sentence? Maybe stillbirths?

Trying to trace this family in the Irish parish records seems problematic. The records for that area seem to decline in the LVP. On the other hand, they don't seem to show up over here either.

I'd always imagined Mary coming over to Wales soon after her birth, on account of the 'spoke fluent Welsh' report from one of her friends. But that might have been Mary just rattling off a few stock Welsh phrases to impress people. On the other hand, Alice's and Peter's births needn't mean that they weren't living here because as you know some Irish families did go back off and on for visits.

All rather murky.

Hi Robert
Yes, the children names seem to disappear from the records if not the parents.


Thanks GUT.

[Robert]

Been looking some more and haven't found Elizabeth. Also Margaret is a problem. I've found one who might be theirs but born 7 years before the birth year suggested by the 1861 census. There's another of right birth period but born in Clare. That one has father Daniel Kelly and mother Mary no surname.

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

Could be the same one, Robert. Thanks for that.

[Robert]

Gareth there is an 1855 baptism for a Mary Jane Kelly, father Daniel, mother Mary Mullen, but in Dublin.

[Sam Flynn]

If 'our' MJK's biography is a mixture of fact and fiction, here we have several of its elements ready to hand.

Indeed, but then so did "my" Mary Kelly from Bedwellty - possibly more elements, in fact. Born in Ireland (where isn't stipulated) she lived in a steel-working Welsh town near Cwmavon which, as I've noted, sounds rather like "Carmarthen/Carnarvon" to the unwary. She had family - including cousins - in Cardiff docklands, an area known for young girls leading "a bad life". Her family moved to Cardiff after having been split up between 1871 and 1881, during which time "Bedwellty Mary" seems to have disappeared; I've found no marriage, death or census records for her after 1871 at any rate. What I have found out is that her brother Denis was a soldier, and that he'd become a "lunatic" by 1891.

I know that my identification of the above with MJK has to be provisional, but I find the above elements rather intriguing, if only because they're so utterly distinctive to MJK's story. All that's really missing is the exploded husband!

[packers stem]

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

There were a tiny number of Mary Kelly's in London around that time,it was a very uncommon name. The last two victims on the day of their death were believed to be or using that name when they met their end.
It would be foolish in the extreme to try pass this off as coincidence and ignore the importance....
Therefore Mary Kelly is all important and IS the key in many peoples eyes

[Pierre]

If the only true thing Mary said was her birthplace then that's where one should start. I don't think she lied about that, most people have an attachment to their roots and if she had come from another part of Ireland she would have been found out and its all we have.
So PRESUMING she originates from Limerick, suppose she had another name, common in Limerick but had a family connection to Kelly.
The first twenty common names in Limerick in 19th century are as follows [ in order of number of households]
1 Ryan 2 O'Brien 3 Fitzgerald 4 Conners 5 Hayes 6 Walsh 7 Sullivan 8 Moloney 9 Burke 10 Murphy 11 Kelly 12 Mcnamara 13 O'Donell 14 Sheehan 15 Connell 16 Collins 17 McCarthy 18 Carroll 19 Hogan 20 Lynch

Now suppose one found a family in Limerick that fitted the criteria and went to WALES and one could find a brother in the Scots Guards that could crack if.
For example I looked at Ryan, O Brien Limerick births, nothing stood out, but I found the family of John Conners married to Mary Kelly,and several children born in Limerick, Mary, born 1865, Ellen born 1867 William 1869 James 1870 Patrick 1871 Bridget 1873 Thomas 1875.
I don think its her family no welsh connection, although there were Conners in Wales but the point is that Kelly could have been her mothers name or there could be a family with other including welsh connections
If there are any Scots Guards born in Limerick of the right age and is one of those twenty names, then it might be possible to trace the soldier back to his roots and siblings.
Just a thought.
Miss Marple

Hi,

I am sorry, byt what is the use? Why is the background of Kelly important? There were victims before her. Why should Kelly be a "key"?

Kind regards, Pierre

[MrBarnett]

Sam/Paddy,


On a number of occasions I've come across the place of residence being used as a default place of birth on the census. The most recent were the entries for Joseph Barnett and his wife in 1901. They are almost certainly MJK's Joseph (born in Whitechapel) and his wife, Emily (born in Bethnal Green?) who were living in St George in the East at the time and whose places of birth were given as STGITE.

I wouldn't dismiss this Mary Kelly on the basis of her reported place of birth. The age is approximately right, the occupation is right, and if you scroll down the census form you will find another resident of the Whitechapel Infirmary, a lamplighter's widow named Emma Davis, born, so we are told, at sea on a voyage from Canada.

If 'our' MJK's biography is a mixture of fact and fiction, here we have several of its elements ready to hand.

Gary

[Sam Flynn]

This one maybe in 1881 census?

Mary Kelly, Unmarried, aged 23, Prostitute, Born Whitechapel.
I believe she was in local workhouse

I believe it's rather unlikely that "our" Mary Kelly was a local. For one thing, few people seem to have come forward following her death, which one wouldn't expect for a true local; for another, those who did come forward consistently affirmed that her roots were elsewhere and that she'd only arrived in London in recent years. This gains some (faint) support from the fact that nobody seems to have commented on her accent being inconsistent with her alleged pedigree; we have one or two reports of some kind of "speech impediment", or of her speaking Welsh, but no report of her being a "Cockney".

[Robert]

Yes, that struck me too, Debs. Why the long delay? Missing records? Prison sentence? Maybe stillbirths?

Trying to trace this family in the Irish parish records seems problematic. The records for that area seem to decline in the LVP. On the other hand, they don't seem to show up over here either.

I'd always imagined Mary coming over to Wales soon after her birth, on account of the 'spoke fluent Welsh' report from one of her friends. But that might have been Mary just rattling off a few stock Welsh phrases to impress people. On the other hand, Alice's and Peter's births needn't mean that they weren't living here because as you know some Irish families did go back off and on for visits.

All rather murky.

[packers stem]

The Kilbehenny one might be worth delving a little deeper into.
Mary born 1862 and John in 1864.
I've always thought Henry might be a red herring and could be a middle name used because the father was also John..... Otherwise why Johnto or Ianto which is a Welsh variant of John.
Mothers maiden name was Mayes so that might be unusual enough to make some follow up investigation possible

[GUT]

Thanks Debra.

[Debra A]

Here's a list of other possibles. Marys/Marias born and baptised in Limerick County between 1855 and 1865 (before statutory registration in 1864) whose father was named John:

Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1858 Mungret Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1853 Mahoonagh Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1855 Glin Limerick Joanne Ellena
Mariam Kelly 1859 Croagh Limerick Joannis Honora
Mary Kelly 1853 St. Mary's, Limerick city Limerick John Johanna
Mary Kelly 1854 St. John's, Limerick city Limerick John Eliza
Mary Kelly 1855 Knockany and Patrickswell Limerick John Margt
Mary Jane Kellaher 1865 St. Michael's, Limerick city Limerick John Bridget
Mary Kelly 1862 Kilbehenny Limerick John Mary
Mary Kelly 1865 Ballylanders Limerick John Mary
Mariam Kelley 1861 Cahirnorry Limerick Joannes Honora
Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1862 Bruree Limerick Joaquin Maria
Maria Kelly 1863 Killeedy Limerick Joannis Maria
Maria Kelly 1864 Ballyagran Limerick, Cork Joannis Anna

I started using the parish names listed here to check for men named Kelly, born in that particular parish, who were serving soldiers in 1888 (any regiment)
The first hit I had was for a John Kelly born St Mary's Limerick in 1861.
He was a driver in the Royal Artillery and served 12 years in the colours from attestation in 1880, in Limerick.
In his army records, John originally gave his next of kin as his father Patrick Kelly of Thomasgate Limerick. Further in the records are the notes that he married Annie Maria Marchant in Woolwich in 1886 and on checking that marriage entry in the London marriages for March 26th 1886, 'John' gives his name as James John Kelly and his father's name as James Kelly, a pork butcher.
But whatever his father's name it doesn't appear to have been John.
I'll do some others when I get time.

[Debra A]

From Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915

Name: Maria Kelly
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 22 Apr 1864
Baptism Place: Ballyagran, Limerick and Cork, Ireland
Diocese: Limerick
Father: Joannis Kelly
Mother: Anna McCarthy

Pat...... Sorry just noticed its the one you mentioned above.....

No worries Pat.
Were you able to find any more children of John and Anne born/baptised in Ballyagran between 1855 (their marriage year) and 1862 when their son William was born?

[Debra A]

http://www.limerickdioceseheritage.o...Ballyagran.htm

Debs, I think their marriage was in Ballyagran in 1855, and I'll let your eyes
decipher the writing.

Hi Robert
Re. John Kelly and Mary McCarthy:
I could only find these children for that couple in the christening records of Ballyagran, which have been mentioned before by others:

William 29 May 1862
Maria 22 April 1864
John 26 April 1866
Peter 30 Jun 1868
Alice 30 July 1871

With the marriage being 1855 (and I think you definitely have the right one) I'm sure there would be more children born to them between the years 1855 to 1862? I wonder if there are a large chunk of records missing for those years?