Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Cogidubnus]

Smiling or not

Debs

Not being funny you're far too good to just defend a tiny little corner of anything...for what it's worth (probably not a lot...I'm just a sad old man with a hobby or two) I see in the likes of you the whole future of Ripperism...as the kids say (and as I've already repeated elsewhere) respect hon...truly

Dave

[Debra A]

Dave, I'm really just defending my tiny little corner of this weird world and my right to an opinion just as much as the next bloke with a beard, even though certain others totally blank me for some reason? Yet said certain others try to nag other others into submission over a conclusion, all while moaning on about others who do that!
I don't get it!

[Cogidubnus]

Oh you moo....I bit too...you're really so good for me Debs!

Laughing still

Dave

[Debra A]

Well, Dave-There's John too (although this has been slightly revised I see) which would mean Abberline couldn't differentiate between too and to (as some can't)but, crucially, he also squashed it up to make his misspelt John too into Johnto accidentally making it look like name.
Then, on the other hand we have the fact that Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on.

It's a toss up, just like the grapes.

[Cogidubnus]

I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

Keep persuading me Debs...please!

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

My wife often does it

Sadly, since our second set of twins, mine doesn't!

Seriously though I still can't go with John too

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

What we do not have is any examples of a bonafide "Johnto"

Hi Jon, I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Interesting you should latch onto that too...it was my thought on seeing the pic for the first time...I thought maybe the second "o" was off the edge of the sheet, ...

Hi Dave.
I wouldn't say "off the end of the sheet", rather, it tails off in mid air. The second "o" is flattened out as the pen is lifted off the paper.

Even if the writer did misspell "too" as just "to", this is a common enough mistake for many today. My wife often does it and there's a frequent flyer over on jtrforums who does it on occasion.

All that said, some have suggested Kelly was not her real surname. Yet Barnett's statement uses the name Kelly for both the father & brother. That might be true, or is it Barnett just assuming she meant they were all Kelly's?

As Lynn intimates, what can we rely on with her story anyway?

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

We can also see that "Johnto" is written, squeezed in, at the very edge of the paper. The writer has not allowed himself the room for space between "John" and "to". Also, the "to" has an extended tail which can happen when a writer scribes two "oo" together. One is fully rounded the second tails off in mid air.

Hi Jon

Interesting you should latch onto that too...it was my thought on seeing the pic for the first time...I thought maybe the second "o" was off the edge of the sheet, but looking closer it seems not...it's not that close to the edge. The haste of the hand, however, is evident from the flowing strokes between words...which makes the clarity quite remarkable...

So I can't quite subscribe to "John too" rather than "Johnto", but understand your reasoning...

Rather against my instincts, I'm gradually becoming persuaded that there's a Johnto Johnson in the Scots Guards (rather than a brother) who was writing to her...jury's still out on that though...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

non-existent

Hello Jon.

"It is futile to insist on a name which does not exist. . ."

Completely agree. I cannot find anything in MJK's case that exists.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. You are correct about alternate names. But surely the correct version would be required for the military?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
There have been cases where a serviceman died and next of kin was not notified because he signed up under an alternate name. This has happened more than once.
A young man signing up in the military (not today obviously), has the opportunity to become someone else. If he never liked his christian name, he takes one he does like. If Henry didn't like "Henry", and he prefered John, like his father, then thats what he used. There's nothing at all mysterious, unbelievable or suspicious about this.

What we have developing here is along the lines of what occured with the GSG. Where someone runs away with the idea that "Juwes" was spelled "Juives" and a whole line of hypothesees emerge to try justify this false line of reasoning.

Here we have a comment by Barnett, which mentions Kelly's father's name - John. And, that her brother Henry was also known as John, like her father.
The writer has demonstrated the idiosyncracy for joining adjacent words together by not lifting the pen off the paper. We see this repeated several times in just a few lines on that very statement.

We can also see that "Johnto" is written, squeezed in, at the very edge of the paper. The writer has not allowed himself the room for space between "John" and "to". Also, the "to" has an extended tail which can happen when a writer scribes two "oo" together. One is fully rounded the second tails off in mid air.

There is no mystery here, we have a writer with a couple of idiosyncracies.

What we do not have is any examples of a bonafide "Johnto" with which to support this "Juives-type" argument.

The Welsh "Yan" is no different to the English "Ian", and its relationship to "John" is equally the same.
We have "Yan/Ian", we even have "Yanto" or "Ianto", but what does not exist is a "Johnto".

Yan or Ian in Welsh or Gaelic might mean the same as John in English but when you express the Welsh Yan as the English John you do not then append the Welsh "to" on the end of an English name, thats just plain silly.

It is futile to insist on a name which does not exist, especially when an obvious solution is staring us in the face.
Sorry, if I am being too blunt, but I call it as I see it.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

2 out of 3 ain't bad

Hello Garry.

"Kelly was not the fragrant rose that many would have us believe. She was clearly exploiting Barnett (who was paying the rent and putting food on the table), seeing at least two other men behind his back"

Well, if you mean Fleming, I'm not sure it was behind her back as he was fully cognisant of her fondness for, and spending time with, him.

"The evidence does not support the notion that she was visited either by her father or brother."

Completely agree here. I don't believe ANY of her family came to see her.

"But someone knew her as Mary Kelly of Miller's Court. The Irish correspondence renders this a certainty. The problem here is that this person couldn't have been one of her family members."

Again, I totally agree. But I don't see an implication to a soldier boyfriend.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

But having never met Johnto nor read his letters, why would MJ need a cover story?

It's about the bigger picture, Lynn. Kelly was not the fragrant rose that many would have us believe. She was clearly exploiting Barnett (who was paying the rent and putting food on the table), seeing at least two other men behind his back and prostituting herself against his express wishes. One of the locals who claimed to have been in the know also stated that Kelly had tired of Barnett and couldn't bear him near her.

Let's assume, purely for the sake of argument, that Kelly did meet a soldier who was enjoying a period of leave in London. The two spent a couple of days together and then corresponded after he'd returned to his regiment. The plan was to meet up again come the soldier's next period of leave. Kelly could hardly tell Barnett that she was intending to spend a couple of days drinking and sleeping with her new fancy man, so concocted the tale concerning her soldier brother to provide an innocent explanation for what was a less than innocent assignation.

Again, it's about the bigger picture. The evidence does not support the notion that she was visited either by her father or brother. Had this been the case both would have known that she was living in the East End under the name of Mary Kelly, and one or the other would have come forward on learning of her death. But someone knew her as Mary Kelly of Miller's Court. The Irish correspondence renders this a certainty. The problem here is that this person couldn't have been one of her family members. Not only did he or she fail to come forward, but Kelly's immediate family had relocated to Wales years earlier. Thus to my mind the most plausible explanation is that the Irish correspondent was Kelly's soldier fancy man, who was almost certainly attached to the Scots Guards at the time and thus stationed in Ireland.

[lynn cates]

good point

Hello Dave. I think that's right. In various wars, the underaged have been able to pass off as older, just to enlist. Good point.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Correct names? Identified how?

Not necessarily Lynn...have you considered the bounty jumpers who signed up/deserted multiple times? This was no new phenomenon...It was common during the Napoleonic Wars and continued throughout the 19th Century (and contrary to that which some revisionists claim it certainly was NOT latterly a US only issue).

Dave