Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Garry Wroe]

It was a joke.

I gathered as much. But prevention is better than cure.

[Garry Wroe]

Hello Garry. I don't recall the brother's visit in 1888. Can you direct me to that?

Not specifically, I'm afraid, Lynn. My memory no longer has the flypaper quality it once had, so I tend to become confused over sourcing issues. I suspect, however, that the soldier's visit arose during Abberline's questioning of Barnett.

[Debra A]

This is precisely my point. If Kelly really did have a brother named Henry who went under the name of Johnto, such information becomes irrelevant if her soldier visitor was a fancy man rather than a family member. His name may have been Dick Splash for all we know. If so, no amount of Henry, John, Thomas or Kelly combinations will ever lead to his identification.

It was a joke.

[Garry Wroe]

So Henry Johnstone was her lover then?

This is precisely my point. If Kelly really did have a brother named Henry who went under the name of Johnto, such information becomes irrelevant if her soldier visitor was a fancy man rather than a family member. His name may have been Dick Splash for all we know. If so, no amount of Henry, John, Thomas or Kelly combinations will ever lead to his identification.

[lynn cates]

visit

Hello Garry. I don't recall the brother's visit in 1888. Can you direct me to that?

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

stone

Hello Debs. Hmm, "Johnstone"; "Morganstone"? Nah.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Barnett

Hello Richard.

"Is it not conceivable that the Joe,.. Kelly was fond of, was the person serving in that regiment, and Barnett was told that it was her brother Henry[ rather like being caught with a member of the opposite sex by a partner, and introducing them as a cousin.]"

If so, then either:

1. Barnett was confused about not having met him.

or

2. Lying.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

My goodness!, the conjectural barometer climbs to new heights...

If you wish to continue to regard every word uttered by Kelly as gospel truth, be my guest, Jon. Thusfar, however, this is an approach that has failed signally to identify Kelly and locate her immediate family. The issue is eminently straightforward: the soldier who visited Kelly at some point during 1888 was either her brother or he wasn’t. If the former, how did the combined resources of the police and press fail to locate him? If the latter, all of the regimental and parochial searches in the world will never find him because his name wasn’t Henry Kelly. So far from scaling new conjectural heights, I am simply exploring what for me is the far more plausible alternative that Kelly was less than truthful with regard to her soldier ‘brother’. But then, given your previous track record, I shouldn’t really expect you to understand the fundamental principles of historical research.

The context of the claim is that, Kelly's father's name was John, her brother Henry was known as John too! (Johnto), .....Henry John Joseph Kelly.

See what I mean?

How more simple do we need this to be.

Evidently a great deal simpler given your confusion concerning Henry John Joseph Kelly.

[Debra A]

So Henry Johnstone was her lover then?

[Debra A]

My goodness!, the conjectural barometer climbs to new heights...

The context of the claim is that, Kelly's father's name was John, her brother Henry was known as John too! (Johnto), .....Henry John Joseph Kelly.

How more simple do we need this to be..

Regards, Jon S.

Where do you get Henry John Joseph from?

He was Henry, his commrades in the Scots Guards called him 'Johnto'..that's all we have.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
This thread is running amok, it is absolutely clear that no match to Henry Kelly can be found serving in that battalion during 1888, implying that the wrong name was given ie brother henry[ as told to Barnett], that being the case it would explain why the Kelly picture sent to Chris Scott has a picture of Henry seated, photographed in the USA.
He was never in the army...
Is it not conceivable that the Joe,.. Kelly was fond of, was the person serving in that regiment, and Barnett was told that it was her brother Henry[ rather like being caught with a member of the opposite sex by a partner, and introducing them as a cousin.]
If Mrs McCarthy indeed did parcel up , and send to a reluctant soldier, who was identified by the nickname Johnto, and the regiment, one can imagine he would be just as mortified about possible career prospects, as well as any brother.possibly more so, as he was intimate with a White-chapel prostitute, where as a brother would have a more sympathetic response.
The mystery continues..we have now a authentic family photograph [ possibly?] but none of the brothers having served in the army...
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

interpolation

Hello Jon. Very well, but if you interpolate the rest of the phrase, "known amongst his comrades as" it flows much less well.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

My goodness!, the conjectural barometer climbs to new heights...

The context of the claim is that, Kelly's father's name was John, her brother Henry was known as John too! (Johnto), .....Henry John Joseph Kelly.

How more simple do we need this to be..

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

brother

Hello Garry. Thanks. Well, at least we can agree that there was no brother named Henry/Johnto.

But my point is that she had no need to concoct such a story for Barnett's benefit. Of course, IF he had seen her with a man, she might then have explained him as her brother. But at inquest he claimed NOT to have met any of her siblings. So making up such a story would seem redundant.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

Well, given that Barnett had never met her siblings, what need was there for this?

You've lost me there, I'm afraid, Lynn.

If he had met a boyfriend named Johnto and she claimed him for a brother, would not he have stated at inquest, "I met Johnto only one time"?

He might have done had he been asked. He certainly told reporters that Johnto had visited Kelly at some point during 1888.

It's really quite simple. Although Kelly was living with Barnett, she had clearly tired of him and was seeing other men - the two Joes, for example. If she had then met and fallen for Johnto, the two may have arranged to meet again in London come Johnto's next period of leave. This would explain the letters from Ireland (whilst her family were presumably still residing in Wales) and the need to concoct a **** and bull story for Barnett's benefit. It may also go some way to explaining why she expressed a desire to 'go back to her people in Ireland', despite the fact that 'her people' were living in Wales and she hadn't set foot in Ireland for twenty years or so. If this scenario holds true, Johnto's real name would not have been Henry Kelly, which also explains why Kelly's 'brother' was never traced among the regimental records.