Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Jonto and Johnston

Just to bore you all further:

Robert (Janto) Johnston, passed away suddenly on January 4.

09 Oct 1920 - THE GREAT LAKE FATALITY. INQUEST ON THE ...
trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11495638
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Tho clothing,was identified by Martin Mul- lins as having belonged to a male known as "Jonto" Johnson,

Enniskillen Rangers Football Club was founded in 1953. Rangers have won fifty trophies in their 52 year history making them the most successful local team in the Fermanagh and Western.
Managers
First Team Billy Reynolds
Reserve Team Gareth 'Jonto' Johnston

JOHSTON Andrew (Jonto). 4th July -in memoriam.

[Debra A]

Just to make you think of Millers Court, try putting this through Forvo...(then maybe consider who might just've come across the scene?)

Máire

Interesting...

Dave

Jim O' Taggart?...sorry

[Cogidubnus]

About 4.00 am?

Just to make you think of Millers Court, try putting this through Forvo...(then maybe consider who might just've come across the scene?)

Máire

Interesting...

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

I thought I'd caught it before anyone read it...rats!

Sometimes Debs you're far too quick off the mark!

All the very best

Dave

[Debra A]

Lol...too late to shove in the URL now, Dave!
I googled it and yes, definitely echoes of Johnty if not Johnto!

[Cogidubnus]

Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh

Hi Debs

http://www.forvo.com/word/se%C3%A1n_..._ceallaigh/#ga

Switch on your speakers and Listen to this one...Johnto?

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

PS: Another thought occurs to me, which is that though the Welsh with their soft accent pronounce "Ianto" or "Johnto" one way, that's not to say that their English friends didn't pronounce it and spell it somewhat differently.

That's what puzzles me though, Archaic. Do the Welsh pronounce Johnto the same as Ianto? The welsh do have a 'J' sound surely? And there's no evidence Johnto is a version of Ianto is there?

I agree with you about MJKs story. Nothing wrong with checking it out collectively at all, even if others feel it's been done to death. We aren't asking anyone to fund us on Find my Past to do it are we?

[lynn cates]

why?

Hello Garry.

"I suggested long ago that he may have been yet another of her fancy men, and that she simply misrepresented the relationship in order to pull the wool over Barnett's eyes."

Well, given that Barnett had never met her siblings, what need was there for this? If he had met a boyfriend named Johnto and she claimed him for a brother, would not he have stated at inquest, "I met Johnto only one time"?

Cheers.
LC

[Carol]

If Mary Kelly spoke with an Irish or Welsh accent then her pronunciation of the letter 'o' would be completely different from a Londoner's pronunciation.

Carol

[Archaic]

Hi Debs. I was going to attempt to spell "Ianto" phonetically () when I realized it was probably easier to find a recorded version of it online.

So here it is at this link: http://www.forvo.com/word/ianto/#cy

The pronunciation is similar to that of the name "Ian", but with a Welsh accent is does come out sounding somewhat like a softened version of "Yanto", almost like "I-yanto".

All versions of the name John have recognizable similarities. Your idea to look for Johnston or Johnson is a good one.

Garry's idea is of course a possibility, but didn't McCarthy send Mary's things to her brother?

The problem with disbelieving every aspect of everything is that we'll be left with - well, nothing.

Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind and work on.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: Another thought occurs to me, which is that though the Welsh with their soft accent pronounce "Ianto" or "Johnto" one way, that's not to say that their English friends didn't pronounce it and spell it somewhat differently.

[Debra A]

The asumption on this thread appears to be that Kelly told the truth when stating that 'Johnto' was her brother. I suggested long ago that he may have been yet another of her fancy men, and that she simply misrepresented the relationship in order to pull the wool over Barnett's eyes. This would certainly explain the letters from Ireland when her family were presumably still resident in Wales, and resolves the mystery as to why no Henry Kelly was found to have been serving in the relevant regiment during the timeframe under scrutiny.

Yes, that is the assumption, Garry, because it was originally set up in direct response to a post by Richard Nunweek on another thread. Richard believes that it is a fact that MJK's name was Mary Jane Kelly and that she had a brother 'Johnto' who was in the Scots Guards and took charge of Mary's belongings after her death, as told by Fiona Kendall Lane.

[Garry Wroe]

The asumption on this thread appears to be that Kelly told the truth when stating that 'Johnto' was her brother. I suggested long ago that he may have been yet another of her fancy men, and that she simply misrepresented the relationship in order to pull the wool over Barnett's eyes. This would certainly explain the letters from Ireland when her family were presumably still resident in Wales, and resolves the mystery as to why no Henry Kelly was found to have been serving in the relevant regiment during the timeframe under scrutiny.

[Debra A]

Hi Archaic,
Is Ianto pronounced Yan-toh though? That's what turns me off it as the name Abberline wrote down as 'Johnto' from Barnett's dictation.

I have just noticed from some online obituaries that both Jonto and Janto ( and presumably Johnto) often go hand in hand with the surname Johnston as a nickname in Ireland- Something like Henry 'Jonto' Johnston.

Scott Nelson did suggest to look for Henry Johnson (without the t) a while back and I mentioned Johnston as an alternative because there was a Henry Johnston in the Scots Guards.
There were a few men with the surname Johnson and Johnston in the regiment so I'll look at those next, although Scott may already done it and found nothing.

[Archaic]

Janto

Hi Debs. Thanks for answering my question.

"Janto" sounds like a phonetic variation of the Welsh version of John, "Ianto".

Could it be a nickname that is somehow connected to a traditional Welsh trade like coal-mining?

It also sounds like a variant of the common Eastern European version of "John", which is "Jan". The name "Jan" is particularly prevalent among Poles.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Debra A]

I was wondering about Henry's comrades in the Scots Guards supposedly giving him the name 'Johnto'. I know it's traditional for men with certain surnames to be given a nickname based on their surname in the forces, isn't it? Chalky for White, Smudge for Smith etc. are ones that come to mind.

I'm not too up on whether these nicknames were also based on other characteristics too like the soldiers civilian job or place of birth perhaps or have far this tradition dates back? Is anyone else?

I was just reading that in the 19th century the name 'Millie' was used in Northern Ireland, particularly Belfast, as a name for a female of the working class, earning a living in the linen mills. Using the term 'Millie' in a derogatory way (as it was probably also used in the 19th C) to describe a certain stereotypical female [similar to the English use of 'Chav') has survived in the area.
Interestingly, the male equivalent of 'Millie' is 'Janto'. Could this also be from the 19th Century and denote some type of working class Irish occupation or something similar?

Just a thought.