The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Debra A]

I think your spot on here Debs, photos from this period had a border around them so we are not seeing the full card. The photo would be developed onto paper and then stuck on the photographers card.

Rob

Thanks Rob and Robert. At least we know that's why the corners appear intact then.

[Rob Clack]

Yes, Chris, but that's a different thing to what others have been proposing on other threads about the name 'Johnto' being someone mis-hearing Barnett saying John too, or John two. I presumed Livia was responding on here to that scenario and one where I proposed Johnjoe may have been the misheard nickname, which was used in Ireland as shown by the 1901 and 1911 census.

Couldn't it be that he was known as "John" to.

Rob

[Debra A]

Couldn't it be that he was known as "John" to.

Rob

Rob, can I ask? When you say "John" to; what word would rhyme with the way you pronounce the 'to'?

[Sally]

Speech

If Barnett did have a speech impediment, as has been suggested at times, maybe that might account for other's mishearing what he was saying.

[The Good Michael]

Am I the only one who always thought it was pronounced John Toe?

Mike

[curious4]

names

Still think it was Ianto. They lived in Wales, spoke welsh, why not a welsh name?

C4

[Rob Clack]

Rob, can I ask? When you say "John" to; what word would rhyme with the way you pronounce the 'to'?

Two?

Rob@confused.com

[Debra A]

Thanks Rob. I was just wondering about the accent. I'll tell you by email when I can get on it. It's not responding at the moment.

[Debra A]

Am I the only one who always thought it was pronounced John Toe?

Mike

No, that's exactly what I thought too. That's why I suggested Johnjoe, thinking his name may have been John Joseph. Incidentally, Henry John Joseph Kelly is the supposed name of the Johnto in the family chris is in touch with.

[Rob Clack]

Thanks Rob. I was just wondering about the accent. I'll tell you by email when I can get on it. It's not responding at the moment.

Oky, I'll wait for it x

[Semper_Eadem]

I think Js and T's got mixed up back then because of the way folks wrote them.

Here you have a journalist taking a statement and writing out what he hears. Then at the paper they type it up. Now if the person doing the typing isn't familiar with how that reporter wrote his Js and Ts then it is possible Johnjo became Johnto.

The same thing happened with my grandfathers first name Torrence on the 1930 federal census. It became Jorrence, it was a real pain trying to find him believe me.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that John-Joe is a good bet, it certainly fits the Henry who was the brother in the Scots guards, the relation that received all of Mary's belongings, which may have included this photograph.
It sure is a coincidence that his middle names are John Joseph, if all of this is authentic, it looks like major developments are in store.
Regards Richard.

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi,
I would suggest that John-Joe is a good bet, it certainly fits the Henry who was the brother in the Scots guards, the relation that received all of Mary's belongings, which may have included this photograph.
It sure is a coincidence that his middle names are John Joseph, if all of this is authentic, it looks like major developments are in store.
Regards Richard.

I also think so. I find it interesting too that one of Mary Kelly's nicknames is "Black Mary" which could have referred to her having dark hair and eyes. Yet, I also wonder how dark the sitter in the photos hair is in that her eyebrows are very light or look lighter then her hair.

Bah, I could go on all day nitpicking, yet what I have mentioned are what I think should be noted, that Mary was called Black Mary, which could of had something to do with her having dark hair, now, I always took it to mean that Mary had a temper, but the nickname could had something to do with Mary's coloring too. Yet to be honest Mary was also called Fair Emma too, yet she wasn't called Fair Mary but Emma so perhaps that isn't relevant unless Emma is her real name? Now I am rambling again.

Anyways if that is Mary in the photo and she was called Black Mary I say that is one of the more apt nicknames she was given then.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Semper,
Kelly's nicknames are several.they include Black Mary, Fair Emma, and ginger.
Black Mary, appears to have been a reference to her clothes, especially her dark velvet jacket, which she often wore.
Ginger appears to been a reference to her hair colouring which apparently was red very distinctive according to Young McCarthy, although it may have been a reference to her liking for ginger beer.?[ found in her room]
The reference to fair Emma is unknown , although a fair complexion is a educated guess, but why Emma, unless it was a term used at the time, reflecting features. like 'fair as a lily' as a resident described her.
Regards Richard.

[Semper_Eadem]

I didn't know about the jacket, I find it odd that someone was referred to via nickname because an article of clothing but not a physical feature, it's possible though, all I can say is that must have been some jacket.

I still wonder if Mary Kelly was her real name. Perhaps the sitter in the photo is our Mary Kelly yet not a real Mary Kelly.

As for hair it could of indeed have been a dark chestnut that photographed dark and that, Mary dyed later on. Perhaps, to give Joseph Fleming the slip or an old pimp or maybe dyed just to solicit more business? Do McCarthy's son know a dyed haired woman when he saw one?

Too many questions about Mary.

I say that I think the sitter's hat is a man's panama hat. I bet she slapped a feather on it to give it a feminine air.