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For what reason do we include Stride?

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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    The cashous indicate that she was surprise attacked which could include the ripper , the scarf evidence indicates that she was grabbed from behind by the scarf and that it was twisted tightly as the knife went across her throat why couldn’t this have been done by the ripper who just took advantage of the scarf, the location of the murder suggests that she felt entitled to be in that passageway at that time why would Liz have felt particularly entitled? Any more that AC felt entitled to be in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street , and the fact that another woman was killed in more "Ripper-like" fashion on the same night is the reason she is included in the Canon And the fact that it’s very plausible that the killer was disturbed provides a reason for the second murder. If you would like to include any murder that happened during those months Were there many throat-cutting prostitution murders?, no matter how dissimilar to Polly and Annie in both circumstantial evidence and physical evidence, and if you want to use a statement from an alledged witness to an altercation that is completely absent in the proceeding that was held to determine her manner of death Schwartz isn’t required. Liz was murdered, someone did it, that person might have been the ripper., and if you want to ignore that the Mens Club and some witnesses that night were considered anarchists by the local people and law enforcement, and that they attacked police with clubs in that yard less than 6 months later resulting in the arrest of at least 2 of the witnesses from the Double Event night Attacking the police with clubs during a demonstration is a world of difference from the ripper killings plus anarchists arent de facto liars ,....then you can consider any real answer to who killed Liz and why, beyond your grasp I.e. anyone that thinks that Stride was or even might have been the ripper is stupid.

    Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper and many of the clubs senior staffers including the nights speaker definately lied about certain aspects of what actually transpired. Thanks for clearing that up then
    The biggest issue in Ripperology is over-confidence. Stride might not have been killed by Jack but there’s nothing to justify stating this as a fact. That said, obviously you are entitled to feel as confident on the subject as you want to. ‘’Clearly’’ is a word that we can rarely be justified in using in this case.
    Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 04-22-2019, 10:57 AM.
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      These cachous are often described as being in a packet. A packet could be a paper bag, or a box.
      I don't see any newspaper describing the packet as a bag, but one newspaper does call it a box.

      "The body when found was quite warm. In one hand was clutched a box of sweets, and at her breast were pinned two dahlias; she was respectfully dressed for her class, and appears to be about thirty-five years of age."

      https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html
      In the Star, this description is attributed to Dr Blackwell. However, other papers only mention it generally, and in his inquest testimony, Blackwell describes them as;
      "a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper."

      Dr Phillips says she "held a packet of cachous in her hand"

      Edward Spooner says "I ​​​​​​noticed a bit of paper doubled up in her right hand", although everyone else says the left hand.

      Abraham Heshburg in the Evening News 1 Oct says;
      "In her hand there was a small piece of paper containing five or six cachous. "

      Comment


      • Stride was a ripper victim and broad shoulders was the ripper. The final clue in this little sub mystery is the peaked cap, which all the relevant witnesses saw the suspect werimg that night.

        cashoo red herring.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper
          I'd agree with you there, but not on the basis of any conspiracy theory involving club members. Chances are that Liz was killed by a gentile thug.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Stride is the one I flip flop on as well. The lack of mutilations makes it unclear that she's part of the series. The wound to her throat is not a complete severing of both sides of the throat, as per Nichol's and Chapman. However, neither was Eddowes throat cut right down on both the left and right sides, with her wound much greater on the left than right, with the right cartoid artery only showing a small hole, while Stride's was not touched. The descriptions of the one wound in common between Stride and Eddowes sound very similar to me, with both sounding very different from Nichols and Chapman - but they also seem to have had 2 main cuts over the throat, and so Stride and Eddowes may only be showing the initial one as neither seems to have had the 2nd cut that encircles the entire neck. The timings between murders are not inconsistent with the distances required to be traveled, there are descriptions of people seen with the victims shortly before they were found murdered that are similar enough they could describe the same individual, and so forth. All reasons to consider the possiility they are by the same hand.

            Stride's lack of mutilations is often explained by JtR being interrupted by Deimschutz. If Schwartz's sighting of BS man is not a fabrication (which some might feel was the view of the police as Schwartz was not at the inquest), then that places the assault on Stride as much as 15 minutes prior to Deimshutz's arrival. Eddowes murder and mutilation had less time than that for completion (the beat was 12-14 minutes to complete). I know BS man's actions seem clumsy and loud, but if JtR starts with manual strangulation, then there must be an initial attack of some sort and attacks are, well, violent and aggressive events. Schwartz's account even indicates there wasn't much noise. The idea that JtR's assaults were completely silent is probably a misconception, rather, they didn't result in enough noise to be noticeable or memorable - nothing out of the ordinary. The attack on Stride would fit that bill. And if she had the cachous out when the surprise attack happened, she may have dropped them when thrown to the ground, and picked them up in her left hand, or she may never have dropped them at all. Either way, when her attacker then grabbed her throat to strangle her, they're in her hand and she's held onto them (i.e. makes a fist and starts trying to hit him, or whatever).

            Ok, still sort of could fit in. But if the attack happens 15 minutes before Deimschutz arrives, why the lack of mutilations? That's more than enough time, as per Eddowes. Deimshutz has to arrive just as JtR has killed Stride, which would have to be just about the time Schwartz also sees this initial attack, though we could allow 1 or 2 minutes to pass for JtR to get hold of Stride after throwing her down, and then strangling her, then hears the cart, then cuts her throat and leaves (create scenerio as you please). So if the time between Schwartz and Deimshutz is more than a minute or two, it starts looking odd that there are no mutilations, or even signs that he was going to (i.e. her dress was not raised up, etc). It looks like she was killed and her attacker fled immediately, and that doesn't sound very JtR to me.

            The only other reason I can think of JtR leaving prior to Deimshutz's arrival is that, after having started his attack on Stride, which doesn't go as smoothly as the attack on either Nichols or Chapman previously, he realizes he's been spotted by Schwartz. He kills Stride as she could definitely identify him, and gets out of there, worried that Schwartz may be looking for police. He may even head off in the direction of Schwartz, looking for him to attack as well. Heading in that direction also leads to a route that would take him to where Eddowes is later encountered in about the right amount of time. So to me there is a plausible set of events that works, so I waffle as to which explanation is the right one as both "work", so to speak.

            I know the above is focused mostly on the hypotheses of including Stride, but that's because excluding her requires much less explanation - she wasn't mutilated, she's the only victim south of Whitechapel Road, etc. Including her requires explanation, and I think there are explanations available that don't strain either the evidence we have, or require a lot of magical thinking.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • So BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz not forgetting pipeman, in a street overlooked by a three storey building where the lights where on, a good old song and dance was happening which anyone passing down the street would hear. Plus where anyone could have looked out of the window at anytime to spot him dragging Liz into the yard before or after he had slit her throat. Not forgetting the fact that the light shining from the building would probably make the street better illuminated. Also Brown, Mortimer and Goldstein where probably all nearby at the relevant time not forgetting the comings and goings from the club. So Bs drags Liz into the street and chucks Liz on the floor where she screams before , beside all I said kills her.
              Well if that is Jack or anyone else who killed her for that matter then stupidity does not come into it.
              Regards Darryl

              Comment


              • Could it have been possible that just as the killer had cut Stride’s throat someone opened the side door of the club possibly just for a minute of fresh air standing in the doorway? The killer, fearing that the man was coming into the yard, makes his escape. No one mentions standing at the doorway of course but they might just have feared being suspected of being involved and so kept quiet. There’s no evidence for this of course but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have happened.
                Regards

                Herlock






                "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Stride was a ripper victim and broad shoulders was the ripper. The final clue in this little sub mystery is the peaked cap, which all the relevant witnesses saw the suspect werimg that night.

                  cashoo red herring.
                  "cachous"

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • "Ive become tired of being diplomatic on this most obvious point all these years,so.... Liz was very clearly not killed by a Ripper and many of the clubs senior staffers including the nights speaker definately lied about certain aspects of what actually transpired."

                    Hello Michael,

                    Wait...you've been diplomatic all these years? Well, who knew? But thanks for clearing up the whole Stride issue. So she wasn't killed by the Ripper and the club members definitely lied? Well, I'll be damned.

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • Hello Jeff,

                      You describe Schwartz as witnessing the initial "attack." He only describes Stride being pushed to the ground. Not really much of an attack.

                      You also say the B.S. man goes on to kill Stride because she could definitely identify him. But identify him as what? The man who pushed her? Hardly a hanging offense.

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                        Hello Jeff,

                        You describe Schwartz as witnessing the initial "attack." He only describes Stride being pushed to the ground. Not really much of an attack.

                        You also say the B.S. man goes on to kill Stride because she could definitely identify him. But identify him as what? The man who pushed her? Hardly a hanging offense.

                        c.d.
                        Yah, I get that what is described need not have been a murderous attack, and could be described as pushing. I'm starting from the assumption it was something more and seeing where that leads to see if there's any obvious inconsistencies that arise because of that assumption. It's not proof the assumption is correct though, only that the hypothesis is viable. If BS pushed her because she solicited him and then left, we end up considering the possibility that she continued to solicit others who came by, and the next one was not content to just push her. The latter moves things closer to Deimshutz's arrival, and makes interruption more plausible, etc. I was wondering if a viable line of reasoning arises if BS is JtR and Schwartz witnessed the start of the assault against her without shifting the times (time estimations are very error prone, but I wanted to not play that card this time just to see).

                        As I say, and hope I'm being clear, I'm not suggesting that must be the way it happened, just exploring if we start from those conditions does what follows start tripping over those initial assumptions. I don't think it does, making it a viable hypothesis, but certainly not a proven one.

                        I like to explore what happens when starting conditions are set in different ways, but that doesn't mean I believe those starting conditions have to be true - just "what if we fill in the unknowns this way, what follows?" if that makes sense.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • Hello Jeff,

                          Yes, that is a well thought out post and it seems like you are willing to view things from different angles.

                          But if Schwartz is correct in saying that he only saw Stride being pushed and that she was alive when he left does it not seem strange that the B.S. man would therefore go on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman because at this point he is only guilty of pushing a woman?

                          c.d.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                            So BS man kills Liz after being seen by Schwartz not forgetting pipeman, in a street overlooked by a three storey building where the lights where on, a good old song and dance was happening which anyone passing down the street would hear. Plus where anyone could have looked out of the window at anytime to spot him dragging Liz into the yard before or after he had slit her throat. Not forgetting the fact that the light shining from the building would probably make the street better illuminated. Also Brown, Mortimer and Goldstein where probably all nearby at the relevant time not forgetting the comings and goings from the club. So Bs drags Liz into the street and chucks Liz on the floor where she screams before , beside all I said kills her.
                            Well if that is Jack or anyone else who killed her for that matter then stupidity does not come into it.
                            Regards Darryl
                            Yah, but then, it appears Chapman may have been seen my Mrs. Long shortly before JtR kills her at daybreak in a fenced in backyard of a house filled with people just after the neighbor has gone to the outdoor loo, and also killed Eddowes just after being spotted by 3 people who just passed them, and if any of the people seen with Kelly killed her, then again, having been spotted shortly before and in very risky locations for murder doesn't seem to deter him, so while it would be stupid to make that choice, almost all the murders occurred in locations where it would be stupid to do so Granted, in the other cases he's not seen in an altercation with the victim, and the sightings are not universally viewed as being of JtR and the victims, but that's the way with this case. If we only consider universally accepted bits of evidence, we end up with nothing to explain.

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                              Hello Jeff,

                              Yes, that is a well thought out post and it seems like you are willing to view things from different angles.

                              But if Schwartz is correct in saying that he only saw Stride being pushed and that she was alive when he left does it not seem strange that the B.S. man would therefore go on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman because at this point he is only guilty of pushing a woman?

                              c.d.
                              Yes, it does. But I also think many of the murders occur in places where I think it would be strange to choose to commit them (I really can't get my head around the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street as a place one could possibly choose to commit a murder of any sort, let alone stick around to mutilate the body - he's fenced in after all). So, I'm not adverse to ideas where JtR might make choices I cannot see as sensible. To be fair, I think one can overplay that card as well. I like to think I'm only using it once here, and in a way that seems consistent with other odd choices JtR made. But yes, I agree with you, it's an odd choice to make if he only just pushed her and wasn't at the start of a murderous assault.

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                                Could it have been possible that just as the killer had cut Stride’s throat someone opened the side door of the club possibly just for a minute of fresh air standing in the doorway? The killer, fearing that the man was coming into the yard, makes his escape. No one mentions standing at the doorway of course but they might just have feared being suspected of being involved and so kept quiet. There’s no evidence for this of course but it doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have happened.
                                Yes, that, or some other noise from the club which he thought might be someone coming out. There was enough activity going on that even a sudden lull in activity might have spooked him, and that would be something those inside the club would not even recognize as important.

                                - Jeff

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