For what reason do we include Stride?

[Sam Flynn]

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

I don't see that as an insurmountable obstacle if he had the desire to mutilate Stride's body. It would certainly make it more difficult if he were trying to obtain a particular organ but if all he wanted to do was open her abdomen and rip I don't see it as a problem and a reason to leave the scene.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

Its certainly not an insurmountable obstacle as you say. I was just trying to come up with a possible reason for a delay after the first stroke of the knife with the killer thinking ‘damn’ as the lights go out resulting in a pause followed by an interruption (whether Diemschutz or the side door opening or whatever.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

You have no sense of the dramatic Sam

[harry]

If there was light in the yard when the killer and Stride entered,then it would have been possible for the couple to have been seen.Would the killer,under those circumstances begin an attack.?

[natalie84]

Again, not impossible, but once more we have something intervening on the "b of the bang". Whether it's a light going out or Dymshitz arriving, it's still too much like a Deus ex machina for my taste.

Respectfully, I find it odd to think it more improbable that no such events would have occurred in the course of the killer's activities than that they would.

Like… this was a murderer operating (usually) in public spaces in a majour metropolitan area, in a time and place where sex workers, drunks, police constables, vagrants and early morning labourers would all be out in the street. What strikes me as unusual and 'deux ex machina' isn't that the killer's activities might be interrupted by Schwartz, Diemschutz or even a sudden loss of lighting, but rather that this DIDN'T happen more FREQUENTLY.

The killer was able to blend into the general tumult and chaos of Whitechapel, and to take advantage of it and its citizens desensitization to violence, conflict, screams, whatever, but he wasn't able to control or halt it. Unless we're talking about Tabram or Kelly, where he had privacy, sooner or later someone would stumble upon the scene.

As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

[Robert St Devil]

I don’t have any books to reference with me at the moment but couldn’t the ripper have had Stride in such a place that light from a nearby building threw some light over them to make the murder possible but then, just as he made the first cut, that light went out plunging him into complete darkness?

Oh hi, herlock. At around 12:15a, Wm. West is standing at the kitchen door, about 18 ft from the gate. He can observe that the gates are open, which tells me that there is some light in the street. But, he says none of that light illuminates the yard, which gives me an impression that there is a gloom between the kitchen door and the gate. The only light he mentions is coming from a few first floor windows above him. He describes the yard as dark. Maybe a half hour later, Morris Eagle walks by the spot of her murder, but it was so dark that he couldn't observe anything on the ground. I don't know how high Diemschutz was sitting off the ground , but he can't make out that there's a murdered woman by the wheel of his cart. And, I think I remember this being the site where the building next to the IWEC formed a shade-wall. To me, at least, it seems like the spot where her body was found was gloomy and extremely dark, and had been pitch since 12:15a. If removing a woman's organs was the Ripper's original intent that night, it's not described as being an ideal location for a murderer in the habit of cutting his victims open on the pavement. I can at least say that there was some light in Mitre Square based on the symmetry of those cheek cuts.

Apologies for straying from the thread's question.

[Darryl Kenyon]

So if there was no light in the passageway it would follow this would be an ideal place for Jack to strike, just let Liz lead him there. Yet if we are to believe BS man was Jack then why attack, and pull her into the street, doesn't make sense. Yet if BS was her killer and not Jack then how come Liz is found dead in the yard with no obvious signs of a struggle? It seems a bit square pegs round holes to me.
Regards Darryl

[JeffHamm]

Respectfully, I find it odd to think it more improbable that no such events would have occurred in the course of the killer's activities than that they would.

Like… this was a murderer operating (usually) in public spaces in a majour metropolitan area, in a time and place where sex workers, drunks, police constables, vagrants and early morning labourers would all be out in the street. What strikes me as unusual and 'deux ex machina' isn't that the killer's activities might be interrupted by Schwartz, Diemschutz or even a sudden loss of lighting, but rather that this DIDN'T happen more FREQUENTLY.

The killer was able to blend into the general tumult and chaos of Whitechapel, and to take advantage of it and its citizens desensitization to violence, conflict, screams, whatever, but he wasn't able to control or halt it. Unless we're talking about Tabram or Kelly, where he had privacy, sooner or later someone would stumble upon the scene.

As a more general remark on the subject of the thread, my own opinion is that almost any one of the canonical and probable murders can be separated out from the others. The only two that have a "perfect" similarity were Nicholls and Chapman. We're not looking at a methodical serial killer who acted over a period of years and perfected a consistent modus operandi, but rather a sudden spree of unusual, and rapidly escalating, violence that appeared to terminate just as suddenly. It's not even that outlandish to think all the murders might have been the work of separate perpetrators, fuelled and obscured by the public hysteria over the previous murders. Unlikely, yeah, but still on the table. Why keep Stride in the picture? Because, at the very least, she's part of the phenomenon.

Well, it may have happened quite frequently. There is the distinct possibility that JtR left the scene of Nichols' murder as Cross/Lechmere came down Buck's Row, and for those who favor Cross/Lechmere as JtR, then Paul's arrival is exactly that situation. It seems he may have been overheard when killing Chapman as well. And, there's the possibility given the timing, that if Lawende and company saw Eddowes with her killer, which seems a reasonable probability, that he may even have been in Mitre Square when one of the PC patrolled Church Passage (I've fogotten his name at the moment), but as there was a lamp at the end of Church Passage, and JtR would have been in the dark, when the PC reached the end of Church Passage the light source would have hindered his vision into Mitre Square, but made him visible from Mitre Square. JtR could have left that scene either he approached. The timings are close enough for that to have been the case, so it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors. There's no good evidence for that, other than the reports of something hitting the fence in Hanbury Street, but the times involved for all of the murders are such that he could have been just moments away from being caught in the act near every time.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

The timings are close enough for that to have been the case, so it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors.

Quite so Jeff. It seems evident to me that the murders all followed (or would have, given enough time) the same basic pattern: 1) cut throat* 2) open abdomen 3) remove intestines 4) remove other organs, working upwards 5) still not been disturbed? Go nuts!

Jack may have been disturbed at stage 1 with Stride, stage 2 with Nichols and stage 4 with Chapman and Eddowes.

Chapman's wounds may have indicated to Phillips that her killer was solely focused on removing the womb because that's as far as he'd got before being spooked.

It's tempting to think that, had all the victims been killed in private rooms, they would all have ended up in a similar state to Kelly. Or, just perhaps, if the first killing had been indoors there wouldn't have been any others (or at least, not so frequent) - perhaps, rather than his brain giving way after that awful glut, he'd simply fulfilled all his morbid fantasies and more.

[Sam Flynn]

it is entirely possible he was "interrupted" every time he committed a murder out doors.

Indeed but, in the case of Stride, the "interruption" would need to occur before he could inflict an extensive cut to the throat (and nothing else). That's possible, of course, but it would have been extremely unlucky - for the killer - if that's actually what happened.

[Michael W Richards]

The Kidney idea has more possibilities than most here, a conventional motive like jealousy or anger is more probable in this case based on the evidence. You cannot leave out the mutilation details in Polly and Annies as reference materials, and you cannot reconcile those details with the Stride murder. Liz was killed. Polly and Annie were killed so their killer could cut into them. Kidney himself didnt have to be the one doing the deed though, he could have hired someone. I don't see any shortage of men willing to assault or worse in that neighbourhood, if there was any Pipeman or BSM they could have been sent there.

Though I believe Fanny Mortimer, and she said that from 12:30 until 1am she was her door on the street sporadically, and from 12:50 until 1am continuously. She saw only what Brown saw, a young couple, and then Goldstein in that 10 continuous minutes at the door. And her statement also verifies that she could hear footsteps while not at the door..so she would miss a shout of "Lipski"? If Liz was in the passageway just after PC Smith leaves, then I believe its most probable that her killer was someone at the club that night.

And if she was in that passageway sometime shortly after 12:35, then Schwartz, Eagle, Lave, and Diemshutz have some glaring environmental and chronological "errors" in their statements. And perhaps Spooner is owed an apology.

[Joshua Rogan]

interesting Sam
the event witnessed by Schwartz does have the ring of a domestic to it-the jilted lover killing his ex. Do we have any descriptions of kidney? does he match BS man in any way?

https://photos.casebook.org/displayimage722d.html?album=lastup&cat=11&pos=5

[JeffHamm]

Indeed but, in the case of Stride, the "interruption" would need to occur before he could inflict an extensive cut to the throat (and nothing else). That's possible, of course, but it would have been extremely unlucky - for the killer - if that's actually what happened.

Not necessarily. All an interruption has to be is something that makes him decide to leave, so that could have been something that occurred prior to the first cut, which only would take a couple seconds, so he kills her and leaves. There's no reason why the interruption event has to occur between a first and second cut as far as I can see.

Personally, and I posted a comparison a few pages back, I think the throat cuts to Stride and Eddowes are extremely similar sounding to the point that they seem to point to the same person. However, it's limited (one injury for comparison), and given I'm not a medical expert, the similarities may be due to my lack of expertise not seeing significant differences, or the nature of killing someone by cutting their throat may tend to produce similar injuries quite commonly (making it less indicative of the same person being involved). But, if those similarities are sufficient to make the link probable (or at least increase the probability enough to warrant serious consideration), then it's more for completeness that we need to explain why JtR left Stride without moving on to mutilate.

Anyway, I'm on the fence with regards to Stride. I think considering her as separate from the series has a lot of good arguments, but I think there are also enough reasons to consider her as part of the series. I can't really decide which is more compelling.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

All an interruption has to be is something that makes him decide to leave, so that could have been something that occurred prior to the first cut, which only would take a couple seconds, so he kills her and leaves.

Why not leave her alive, if all that had happened up till then was a bit of rough and tumble? Unless he knew that Stride would be able to identify him, of course, but even then it's possible that all she'd have against him was that he'd roughed her up.

[Michael W Richards]

Personally, and I posted a comparison a few pages back, I think the throat cuts to Stride and Eddowes are extremely similar sounding to the point that they seem to point to the same person. However, it's limited (one injury for comparison), and given I'm not a medical expert, the similarities may be due to my lack of expertise not seeing significant differences, or the nature of killing someone by cutting their throat may tend to produce similar injuries quite commonly (making it less indicative of the same person being involved).


- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Well... Phillips, who saw 4 of the Five Canonicals first hand, saw dissimilarities with Eddowes and the previous victims, let alone with Stride. Kate did have the double cut, something which is unique enough to be considered as a signature or part of his MO, but Phillips still was unconvinced the cuts matched Polly and Annies.