The Cachous

[John G]

I think the example of sports professionals is a little misleading, because the nature of the sport means that you effectively train yourself to respond in a certain way. For example, rugby players and American footballers no doubt fight to hold on to the ball at all costs, effectively tucking it in to the body prior to impact.

I wonder, however, what might happen if Stride fell sideways, rather than, say, forwards or backwards. Might she in those circumstances instinctively tuck her arm into her body like a sling, with the first closed, so that her shoulder takes the impact?

However, the lack of injuries bothers me. Whether thrown or pushed to the ground, it seems extraordinary that there are no cuts, bruises or abrasions of any kind.

Another problem is that Schwartz states that BS man tried to pull Stride into the street. That means he failed, so Stride had to resist. I think it would therefore be likely that Stride would have instinctively used both arms, and hands , as she resisted.

[Errata]

I just tried the bed experiment. The results were the same as when I did it before. I landed on my hands with palms outstretched. I then tried to fall without extending my hands. I could do it but it seemed very unnatural and I had to make a conscious effort not to extend my hands.

Those were my results. Your mileage may vary.

c.d.

And you always will.

A million things determine what happens during a fall. Not the least of which is whether you fell or were pushed. Every part of you is trying to keep you upright, and terrible injuries occur even when a person doesn't actually hit the ground.

In high school I learn that when a person is pushed, they are equally likely to reach forward to grab the person in front of them to stop the fall as they are to put their hands back to break their fall. But unless a person is pushed, or experiences some impact that causes the fall, they never do it. Never. I had a very odd drama teacher.

Every time you fall you will put your hands down. Until you don't. And you have not done it before, you just don't especially remember it, because why would you? Other things come in to play, especially if your face is not in imminent danger. Goalies do it every day, because they hold on to the ball. And they aren't telling themselves "don't put your hands down, don't put your hands down". They don't do it quite naturally. Put anyone in a goal and they will do the same thing. People who slip on ice trying to open their car door go down, but hold on to the car door. That's common. People holding something, even something unimportant will often not put their hands down to save what they are holding. People falling at some rate of speed actually unconsciously position their bodies to try and land on their side, with impact along their thigh. The femur is the strongest bone and it's the best way to displace force, and they will usually keep their hands and elbows tucked in to their chests. People who fall because they were punched in the face almost never put their hands down. They've grabbed their recently punched face.

My father's new girlfriend ( ) is a Sports Medicine phD, so she rattled these off to me. The sport most likely to cause Colles' fracture (the classic wrist fracture from falling) is gymnastics, followed by ice skating. It is rarely seen in football, basketball, soccer, rugby, or hockey. There is a lot of falling in those sports, just apparently the wrong kind. They do have other kinds of wrist fractures.

I don't know what any of this means for our falling woman, but it does mean that the manner of her impact was in no way set in stone. It is likely that she would put her hands down. But no more than likely.

I mean ever our most basic biological imperatives hiccup now and again. Of course your lungs don't need an influx of soda, but somehow you can still manage to swallow wrong. How hard is it to swallow? Some people (not looking at the man to my right) can manage to inhale their own spit and choke. I blink only half as often as I should because I don't particularly produce tears (another biological failure) which my eye doctor find benign but fascinating. And one tragic evening during a bachelorette party I manage to vomit Nerds out of my nose. And I know god didn't intend for that to happen or it wouldn't have hurt so bad. I've never met somebody who has peed wrong, but I know they're out there.

We aren't wired that well, sad to say. We can manage to consciously overcome every biological imperative, including that of remaining alive. And when we aren't paying attention we can still screw up about 3/4 of them. Even if putting your hands down when you fall was wired on par with breathing and blinking, she still had a chance of botching it.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

You are right. Schwartz makes no mention of her hands but I doubt that he noticed one way or another.

Not spilling something that you don't want to spill implies a conscious effort was made to do so. I am not sure whether Stride had time to react in that manner.

I really don't want to try the napkin experiment. It sounds like a good way to get an injury to your wrist.

Holding on to beers and purses is not the same as holding on to cachous wrapped in tissue paper. A beer or purse or some other object is taking the brunt of the fall and isn't going to fall apart.

I'm sorry you don't buy the cachous argument because I think it is an extremely important piece of evidence but I can only lead the horse to water.

c.d.

Hi CD
I meant beer in a cup! Haha.

To be quite honest with you CD, and I admitted this as much before, but I do Beleive that it would be possible, maybe even probable, that stride would have dropped the caschous if thrown to the ground. However, not to the point where I could even think twice about ruling out BS man as her killer. No way-it's ludicrous. For one, there could be any number of scenarios where she was not even holding them when Schwartz witnessed the BS man attack.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

You are right. Schwartz makes no mention of her hands but I doubt that he noticed one way or another.

Not spilling something that you don't want to spill implies a conscious effort was made to do so. I am not sure whether Stride had time to react in that manner.

I really don't want to try the napkin experiment. It sounds like a good way to get an injury to your wrist.

Holding on to beers and purses is not the same as holding on to cachous wrapped in tissue paper. A beer or purse or some other object is taking the brunt of the fall and isn't going to fall apart.

I'm sorry you don't buy the cachous argument because I think it is an extremely important piece of evidence but I can only lead the horse to water.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I just tried the bed experiment. The results were the same as when I did it before. I landed on my hands with palms outstretched. I then tried to fall without extending my hands. I could do it but it seemed very unnatural and I had to make a conscious effort not to extend my hands.

Those were my results. Your mileage may vary.

c.d.

Hi CD
Where in Schwartz statement does it say she used her hands to brace herself?

But for sake of argument, I'll assume she did.

So try your experiment holding a rolled up napkin. You can easily hold onto something when falling to the ground.

Especially if it's something you don't want to spill.

God knows how many times I've fallen down while holding a beer, and never spilled a drop!!

Btw I know how to spell cachews, but I don't really care.. I'll leave that up to you and your cashoo crowd since you hold them so dear. ; )

[c.d.]

I just tried the bed experiment. The results were the same as when I did it before. I landed on my hands with palms outstretched. I then tried to fall without extending my hands. I could do it but it seemed very unnatural and I had to make a conscious effort not to extend my hands.

Those were my results. Your mileage may vary.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Its often been stated that BS mans attack on Stride was not that big of a deal. Its a domestic and/or whitechapel prostitutes must have been used to this sort of thing-happened all the time.

OK-fine.

But, if this is the case, then surely its no big deal for Stride to have then gone with him voluntarily into the yard-taking the caschous out then. Correct?


And one last question for the Cashoo Crowd: So Its feasible that she could hold on to them through being choked with her scarf, her throat being cut and going to the ground, dying, but not feasible for her to hold onto them through such a minor tussle (according to many)???

Good luck with that one.

Hello Abby,

As a member of the cachous crowd (and "cachous" is the correct spelling) I will attempt to respond but you seem to have rolled a lot of arguments and theories into one so it becomes a bit difficult.

Why would Stride go voluntarily into the yard with a man who had just thrown her into the ground and apparently threatened Schwartz? This seems even more unlikely if it was in fact a "brutal assault or attack" as some like to call it. The argument that it was simply a Whitechapel prostitute being hassled a bit doesn't have the B.S. man as her killer and assumes that he simply left the scene after Schwartz departed so him trying to get Stride into the yard never comes into play.

If it was a domestic, for what purpose would they need to go back into the yard? If he was that angry that he just threw her to the ground the most likely outcome of that would be her getting a good beating. Could she really be that naive to think he "just wanted to talk"? If so, why not do it where Schwartz first saw them? Would they be going back into the yard for sex? Not the most romantic of places if it was a domestic relationship and again Stride had just been thrown to the ground. Hardly a substitute for foreplay for most people.

As for holding on to the cachous, this has been addressed ad nauseum. The arguments for holding them in death have been enumerated many times. Cadaveric spasm for example. But those arguments do not apply to her holding them while being thrown to the ground. It's apples and oranges.

Simply ask a friend to throw themselves on the bed. Don't tell them why. Just say it is an experiment. Then ask them to lay on the floor and push themselves up to a standing position. Finally tell them that you are going to try to drag them against their will and they should try to fend you off. When it is all done ask them what position their palms were in in each case. That should give you your answer.

c.d.

[John G]

Stride's dead face was described as placid in the Coroner's Court.

There was no evidence of a struggle.

The shoulders had pressure marks,not bruises.

The Swedish Social Democratic Party was formed the following year.
It's emblem became a stylized red rose.
Elizabeth was known to work with both Jews and her own country people.
6 Fashion Street was a Jewish soup kitchen,amongst other things.
She was often seen in that street.Elizabeth Tanner thought she lived there instead of 38 Dorset Street.

Hello DJA,

Good post. Dr Phillips stated: " They were what we call pressure marks. At first they were very obscure...they were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion".

He also opined that it would be difficult to say how recently they'd been caused.

[DJA]

Stride's dead face was described as placid in the Coroner's Court.

There was no evidence of a struggle.

The shoulders had pressure marks,not bruises.

The Swedish Social Democratic Party was formed the following year.
It's emblem became a stylized red rose.
Elizabeth was known to work with both Jews and her own country people.
6 Fashion Street was a Jewish soup kitchen,amongst other things.
She was often seen in that street.Elizabeth Tanner thought she lived there instead of 38 Dorset Street.

[John G]

Okay, here's an alternative scenario to consider. Let us assume, provisionally, that Stride was pushed through the gates. BS man then turns towards Schwartz, shouting Lipski in order to see him off. Schwartz quickly departs, however, BS man decides he's made a big mistake in attacking Stride in front of Schwartz, moreover, he also notices the presence of Pipeman for the first time. Initially, therefore, he decides to leave the scene as murdering Stride would be too risky.

Meanwhile, Stride assumes that BS man has gone and she therefore takes out a cachous to help her recover from the shock (she doesn't immediately get up, as she wants to have a minute first, whilst she recovers and regains her composure.) Unfortunately, BS man changes his mind; he returns and quickly slits Stride's throat. Oh, wait a minute...that actually makes sense!

I do, however, see difficulties with this scenario. Firstly, the police report doesn't mention Stride being pushed. Secondly, when she saw BS man return, wouldn't she immediately let out a scream, and wouldn't this be heard by Mrs D, who was probably sat a few feet away in the kitchen with the window open? Thirdly, as Stride witnesses BS man's return, wouldn't she try and stand up? Wouldn't you expect to see signs of a struggle? Fouthly, if she was pushed backwards, wouldn't you expect to see impact injuries? Wouldn't her wrist be injured as she tried to break the fall? If she didn't try and break the fall, wouldn't she have sustained significant back/head injuries?

[John G]

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

Thanks for this Jon. But if we say that the footpath was about 3 feet or more from the gateway, we're still talking about a total distance of two and a half yards. Moreover, the police report doesn't mention she was pushed, but thrown down on to the footpath.

[John G]

Why no verification of this positive claim that in any homicide a person dragged a short distance must show all those things?

Again to say this must be the case, you must show evidence for that otherwise you have to accept it doesn't have to be the case and therefore isn't a valid objection.

The crime scene was disturbed by people going in and out and moving the body so footprint evidence is contaminated.

I think it would be probable. That's the central difficulty for me in accepting that Schwartz witnessed a prelude to a murder: it means accepting too many unlikely scenarios.

[Batman]

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

1.5 yards. Not even a couple of yards, nor a few yards and definitely not 'several' yards.

As John Guy says, its a push away.

[Batman]

As I've said before, I think her killer must have launched a surprise attack from behind. Where does Schwartz mention Stride being strangled? If she was dragged, why no drag marks? Why no bruising or grazong to the back or legs?

Why no verification of this positive claim that in any homicide a person dragged a short distance must show all those things?

Again to say this must be the case, you must show evidence for that otherwise you have to accept it doesn't have to be the case and therefore isn't a valid objection.

The crime scene was disturbed by people going in and out and moving the body so footprint evidence is contaminated.

[Jon Guy]

There is a contemporary sketch which suggests her body was a significant distance inside the yard. In any event, the photograph depicts the gate as being set back from the street and footpath. I would have had thought that she would have to move a couple of yards from the footpath merely to fully clear the gateway entrance.

Hi John

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)