The Cachous

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"There is a series of moves that makes sense for her to end up where she ended up with the mud and the stains etc."

Agreed. But I am waiting for an alternative to mine to be reproduced.

More than happy to discuss.

Cheers.
LC

The truth is that there is a whole if:then sort of flow chart that hovers in all of our minds, and we have almost nothing we can point to as absolute fact to start crossing off scenarios. If she knew her attacker then this, if she didn't know her attacker, but didn't see him then something else... Frankly I think we need to work backward. Start from how she was found, work back to say, 11 o clock in the evening.

But that's a whole other thread.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

yes. I think BS man was probably her killer also. absolutely that scenario works. as a matter of fact I find it more likely that some sort your above scenario is what happened, rather than a cooling off period after the initial assault and stride then going willingly in with BS man to the yard, where she is then killed by him. But like I said Im trying to keep an open mind.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

If you look at my first post in the thread "A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?", you will see all of the questions that a killer other than the B.S. man resolves.

c.d.

will do CD. Thanks!

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

If you look at my first post in the thread "A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?", you will see all of the questions that a killer other than the B.S. man resolves.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Um, would she take her cachous out just before servicing a client? Afterwards maybe. I don't think the clientele in the area were interested in minty fresh breath.

Best wishes
C4

Hi curious
I don't know-maybe. perhaps she was, or clients were.

perhaps they had not agreed, to sex, and its more along the lines of what JohnG describes.

Im not wedded to any one scenario, just exploring possibilities at this point.

I will say that at the least, within these different scenarios im exploring I do think it more likely than not that BS man was her Killer and the ripper.

I suppose its possible that he wasn't her killer, and someone else came along after BS man left and killed her, but that for many reasons, which I have made before, I find that highly unlikely.

Could you please let me know what you think happened, or most likely happened?

[Jon Guy]

and that is a factor that clearly undermines Schwartz's account.

How does that undermine his account, John ?
How would he know no-one other than those people he saw were about at that time ?

[c.d.]

Hello c.d.

The street would clearly be a highly risky place to commit a murder, as evidenced by the presence of Schwartz and Pipman. Dutfield's Yard was far less risky because it was cloaked in pitch black darkness- Lave couldn't even see the door to get back in, so had to feel around the wall in order to orientate himself. It was also sat back from the street, out of range of the prying eyes of, say, Fanny Mortimer and PC Smith.

If her killer was BS man, I would speculate that he was trying to pull her away from the Yard in order to encourage her to come with him to a safer location. In effect, he was acting out of frustration- if he was Marshall's suspect he may have been trying to persuade her for some time.

However, having failed in this endeavour he resorts to plan B, regarding the pitch black darkness of Dutfield's Yard as a reasonable alternative. How does he get her into the Yard? Well, as I've speculated before, he first of all portrays the incident witnessed by Schwartz as an unfortunate accident: Stride simply lost her balance as she resisted his attempt to pull her into the street.

He then apologizes and entices her into the Yard by offering to buy her a drink in the club, where she can also enjoy the singing and the music. And, of course, she may be much more amenable to this idea if BS man is the same as Marshall's well-spoken, charming suspect. Stride might also have been attracted to the offer of the club because she doesn't want to upset him again whilst he's being reasonable and trying to make amends. Moreover, it's a public place, so if BS man becomes unpleasant again she can always seek assistance.

Hello John,

I am afraid this still does not answer my question. Assuming the B.S. man was NOT a client but rather a domestic and he does not pull Liz into the yard but rather that she went voluntarily, what would they be going in to the yard to do that they couldn't do in the street?

c.d.

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

Um, would she take her cachous out just before servicing a client? Afterwards maybe. I don't think the clientele in the area were interested in minty fresh breath.

Best wishes
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

What about this. Let's assume that BS man and Marshall's man are the same person. Now, on the face of it, he doesn't seem particularly threatening, far from it. Marshall described him as well-dressed, well-spoken and educated. He appeared charming, and may even have bought Stride a flower. And, of course, in this scenario Stride would have been with him for at least an hour, during which time he doesn't attack her.

However, let us assume he's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a predetermined murder location but she refuses. They have an argument and Stride walks off to the gate. BS man doesn't follow immediately- he's weighing up his options, thinking he might be better off looking for another victim.

But he changes his mind. He makes one last attempt to persuade Stride to come with him and walks towards her. They have a brief discussion before he grabs her arm and pulls her toward the street by way of encouragement, and out of frustration. Unfortunately, Stride looses her balance and falls to the ground, a scene wrongly interpreted by Schwartz.

After seeing off Schwartz he noticed how dark Dutfield's Yard is and decides it's a plausible alternative murder location. He apologizes to Stride for the "accident" and by way of further apology he suggests they go to the club where he'll buy her a drink- perhaps he informs her he's a club member.

She agrees- after all, he's been pleasant for most of the evening and she accepts what happened was probably an accident and out of character for the man.

She takes out the cachous to help her relax after the incident witnessed by Schwartz, and also to freshen her breath prior to entering the club.

not bad. not bad at all.

[curious4]

Hello John

Polly Nichols, Kate Eddowes?

Best wishes,
C4

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Your post #382 is very interesting.

Can you continue with a scenario where Liz and BSM enter the yard and she ends up dead?

It would be helpful to identify:

1. placement

2. motivations, etc.

I think this may be quite instructive.

Cheers.
LC

Sure.
She now has acquiesced to have sex so she takes the caschous out as they enter the yard. she positions herself with her back against the wall facing him. he suddenly goes for the throat as per his usual MO grasping her scarf, choking her with that as he lowers/forces her to the ground. Takes his knife out, cuts her throat, but then before he mutilates takes off because of diemshitz, or a sound from the club.

As for motivation-hes the ripper, and he FINALLY got this woman into a secluded spot, so hes going to do his thing.

[John G]

Bit of a coincidence that Schwartz saw BS Man at a time when we know none of the above were about.

Lucky or what.

Hello Jon,

Yes, I agree, and that is a factor that clearly undermines Schwartz's account. However, it could be coincidental, or Schwartz may have got his timing wrong. Moreover, there is certainly one big coincidence that is undeniable: someone went into Dutfield's Yard with Stride and it must have happened when none of those other witnesses were present. Unless, of course, you support the club conspiracy theory!

[Jon Guy]

. I mean, it was clearly a relatively busy, and reasonably well lit place. Just prior to the incident, witnessed by both Schwartz and Pipeman, we have the presence of Fanny Mortimer, the couple referred to by Mortimer, PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Louis D.

Bit of a coincidence that Schwartz saw BS Man at a time when we know none of the above were about.

Lucky or what.

[John G]

Hello John

He liked to display his victims in a place where people would see the bodies. If he wanted to implicate the Jews, outside the club may have occured to him as a good place. Inside the yard the body would have been seen first by jews, as it was.

His knife was most probably within easy reach - unless pipeman/knifeman was holding it for him (speculation warning) leading us to a theory where several men were involved as in Emma Smith's case.

Best wishes
C4

Hi C4,

As I've noted on my reply to c.d I think the street would be an extremely risky place to commit a murder, and a crazy place to carry out mutilations if that was his intent. I mean, it was clearly a relatively busy, and reasonably well lit place. Just prior to the incident, witnessed by both Schwartz and Pipeman, we have the presence of Fanny Mortimer, the couple referred to by Mortimer, PC Smith, Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Louis D.

JtR was clearly a risk taker, but I don't think he was completely crazy!