The Cachous

[John G]

Its often been stated that BS mans attack on Stride was not that big of a deal. Its a domestic and/or whitechapel prostitutes must have been used to this sort of thing-happened all the time.

OK-fine.

But, if this is the case, then surely its no big deal for Stride to have then gone with him voluntarily into the yard-taking the caschous out then. Correct?


And one last question for the Cashoo Crowd: So Its feasible that she could hold on to them through being choked with her scarf, her throat being cut and going to the ground, dying, but not feasible for her to hold onto them through such a minor tussle (according to many)???

Good luck with that one.

Hi Abby,

That's why I think she must have been attacked from behind. In such circumstances she would have no need to break a fall. I also think Schwartz may have witnessed an altercation involving a different couple, I.e the one seen by Brown, Mortimer or even Marshall. This would explain why Schwartz didn't mention the flower or, for that matter, the cachous. It is would also expect explain the brief conversation prior to the attempt to pull the woman into the street, I.e if it was a domestic dispute.

As I've noted before, if the intention was a blitz attack, why the need for any conversation? If the intent was to lure Stride away, to a more suitable murder location, why change tactic after such a brief attempt?

[John G]

John, what is your source for where the body was found please ?

Hi Jon,

There is a contemporary sketch which suggests her body was a significant distance inside the yard. In any event, the photograph depicts the gate as being set back from the street and footpath. I would have had thought that she would have to move a couple of yards from the footpath merely to fully clear the gateway entrance.

[John G]

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

As I've said before, I think her killer must have launched a surprise attack from behind. Where does Schwartz mention Stride being strangled? If she was dragged, why no drag marks? Why no bruising or grazong to the back or legs?

[Abby Normal]

Its often been stated that BS mans attack on Stride was not that big of a deal. Its a domestic and/or whitechapel prostitutes must have been used to this sort of thing-happened all the time.

OK-fine.

But, if this is the case, then surely its no big deal for Stride to have then gone with him voluntarily into the yard-taking the caschous out then. Correct?


And one last question for the Cashoo Crowd: So Its feasible that she could hold on to them through being choked with her scarf, her throat being cut and going to the ground, dying, but not feasible for her to hold onto them through such a minor tussle (according to many)???

Good luck with that one.

[Abby Normal]

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

Not only that, but it may have also suppressed the flow/spray of blood.

[Batman]

She would have had plenty of time to cry out before her assailant grabbed the scarf.

I bet you quickly drop this line of reasoning when it comes to your alternative killer hypothesis because Ninjaman is able to do this but not BSman for some unknown reasoning.

Also as Schwartz stated, she cried out, but not very loudly. That's consistent with the beginning of a voice box compression. Did Schwartz just guess this also? No, its corroboration of the facts. She didn't cry out loudly. Body found with neckerchief tight around neck.

[Batman]

To be honest Batman, if I was told the victim had been assaulted and cast to the ground I would be looking for bruises & scrapes on the heels of her hands, elbows, knees, hips, etc. Likewise for mud at the same points of contact.

If I found none, I might be suspicious about the accuracy of that claim, or perhaps consider this was a different individual.

Bruises on the chest, or front of shoulders, does not indicate contact with the ground.

No the bruising doesn't indicate contact with the ground, it indicates a frontal assault. Neither pathologist nor witness where aware of each other on this point. That's strong corroboration.

The hypothesis all dragging instantly produces torn clothes has to be supported with some evidence because its a positive claim. I see none for it until it can be produced.

[Jon Guy]

She was found several yards away from the footway not just a few feet. And, as you point out, the bruising that was present may have been old.

John, what is your source for where the body was found please ?

[John G]

This is really stretching things. Significant in terms of where Schwartz saw her being thrown to the ground, but not significant for an alternative killer hypothesis at all. She is literally just a few feet in from where she was found.



There is nothing on a rainy muddy night to say that she must have torn her dress after being dragged a few feet by her neckerchief. Since the upper portion of the body would be up off the ground, it would only last two or three seconds at the most. You would basically have to show that every example of a homicide where someone was dragged shows a torn part of clothing.

Mud is on both sides of her jacket. So she didn't just hit the mud on her left side.



Yes it was, considerably so. Again her body shows significant bruising on the shoulders and on her chest. The pathologists said they couldn't conclusively say if it was old or recent, but noted them. In light of Schwartz there is no reason to believe they are old.



You can't cry out if your voice box is being suppressed by a neckerchief obviously. It was suppressed too, that's a fact of the forensic pathology report.

She was found several yards away from the footway not just a few feet. Her back and legs were not bruised or grazed, and a bit of mud is not the same as a suit of armour. And, as you point out, the bruising that was present may have been old. She would have had plenty of time to cry out before her assailant grabbed the scarf.

[Wickerman]

Yes it was, considerably so. Again her body shows significant bruising on the shoulders and on her chest. The pathologists said they couldn't conclusively say if it was old or recent, but noted them. In light of Schwartz there is no reason to believe they are old.

To be honest Batman, if I was told the victim had been assaulted and cast to the ground I would be looking for bruises & scrapes on the heels of her hands, elbows, knees, hips, etc. Likewise for mud at the same points of contact.

If I found none, I might be suspicious about the accuracy of that claim, or perhaps consider this was a different individual.

Bruises on the chest, or front of shoulders, does not indicate contact with the ground.

[Batman]

She ended up a significant distance inside the Yard.

This is really stretching things. Significant in terms of where Schwartz saw her being thrown to the ground, but not significant for an alternative killer hypothesis at all. She is literally just a few feet in from where she was found.

As noted before, if she'd been dragged that far her dress would have been torn

There is nothing on a rainy muddy night to say that she must have torn her dress after being dragged a few feet by her neckerchief. Since the upper portion of the body would be up off the ground, it would only last two or three seconds at the most. You would basically have to show that every example of a homicide where someone was dragged shows a torn part of clothing.

Mud is on both sides of her jacket. So she didn't just hit the mud on her left side.

"... and her body grazed and bruised, which it wasn't."

Yes it was, considerably so. Again her body shows significant bruising on the shoulders and on her chest. The pathologists said they couldn't conclusively say if it was old or recent, but noted them. In light of Schwartz there is no reason to believe they are old.

She would also have been given ample opportunity to cry out. It's an extremely unlikely scenario in my view.

You can't cry out if your voice box is being suppressed by a neckerchief obviously. It was suppressed too, that's a fact of the forensic pathology report.

[John G]

Yes, the mention of a footway is a bit of a misnomer, the entry was graded down from the gateway to the street level using what looks like cobbles, or set stones. The actual footpath/footway was broken at this point on either side of the gateway, much like where Polly Nichols was found.
I suspect in this case "footway" only indicates the area immediately outside the gates, even though it was cobbled, and not paving flags.

I agree. It doesn't make any sense to me that the term "footway" would have been used to describe an area inside the gate.

[Wickerman]

Yes, the mention of a footway is a bit of a misnomer, the entry was graded down from the gateway to the street level using what looks like cobbles, or set stones. The actual footpath/footway was broken at this point on either side of the gateway, much like where Polly Nichols was found.
I suspect in this case "footway" only indicates the area immediately outside the gates, even though it was cobbled, and not paving flags.

[John G]

Even if there was a footpath in 1888 it wouldn't be much of one because its a gateway entrance! Things with hooves and wheels didn't mount some curb going in.

If someone is standing IN the gateway then they can only land on either side of it if thrown to the ground. In this case Schwartz opts for the ground in front of the gateway not the ground on the other side of the gateway. However the distances involved are at the most minimal not the most extreme, like onto the road or anything like that. The road is simply a landmark of direction. She was first pulled that way, as in grabbed while she stood there and pulled towards him before being thrown down on the ground.

To be honest why its boggling anyone's mind to get her from that position to a foot or two around the corner, especially with her neck handkerchief we know was used to choke her, this can't have been some impossible mission where we need a Tom Cruise character to ninja it for him.

She ended up a significant distance inside the Yard. As noted before, if she'd been dragged that far her dress would have been torn and her body grazed and bruised, which it wasn't. She would also have been given ample opportunity to cry out. It's an extremely unlikely scenario in my view.

[John G]

It`s not a cleverly worked out argument, John, in fact, it` so simple even Lynn could understand it.



Just had another look at that photo, and as I remembered, the footway breaks off at the entrance to the gates.
But it`s not important, as we are all just reading Swanson`s summary of the Schwartz statement, and even then I suspect the original statement was translated by someone on Schwartz`s behalf.

Hello Jon,

Yes, you're correct. However, the way I read the police account she is pulled away from where she was standing toward the street. She was then spun round and thrown on the footway. Now, as the footway runs up to the gateway on both sides, this seems logical to me, particularly as BS man was no doubt stronger than the woman and may have pulled her a good distance toward the street, I.e so that she ends up in the gap between where the footway breaks off on either side, prior to being spun and thrown to the ground

I think it is also worth noting that the Yard itself was cloaked in darkness-so much so that Louis D originally thought he was looking down at a bundle of rags, and Lave couldn't see the door to get back in. Therefore, if she'd been stood away from the gate and into the Yard, I doubt Schwartz would have been able to see her.