The Cachous

[Batman]

Even if there was a footpath in 1888 it wouldn't be much of one because its a gateway entrance! Things with hooves and wheels didn't mount some curb going in.

If someone is standing IN the gateway then they can only land on either side of it if thrown to the ground. In this case Schwartz opts for the ground in front of the gateway not the ground on the other side of the gateway. However the distances involved are at the most minimal not the most extreme, like onto the road or anything like that. The road is simply a landmark of direction. She was first pulled that way, as in grabbed while she stood there and pulled towards him before being thrown down on the ground.

To be honest why its boggling anyone's mind to get her from that position to a foot or two around the corner, especially with her neck handkerchief we know was used to choke her, this can't have been some impossible mission where we need a Tom Cruise character to ninja it for him.

[Jon Guy]

Yes, unless I've misunderstood, I believe that Jon Guy's argument is that Schwartz witnessed the actual murder and that Stride was thrown into the Yard. This is clearly a cleverly worked out argument, but I can't accept it. .

It`s not a cleverly worked out argument, John, in fact, it` so simple even Lynn could understand it.

Thus, the Police Report clearly refers to Stride being thrown on to the footway. From memory, I believe when I mentioned this to Jon, he countered by stating that there was no footway on Berner Street. However, in Begg and Bennett, 2014, there is a photograph of Berner Street from 1909, and a footway, or path, is clearly depicted, running along the side of the street and past the Dutfield's Yard gates.

Just had another look at that photo, and as I remembered, the footway breaks off at the entrance to the gates.
But it`s not important, as we are all just reading Swanson`s summary of the Schwartz statement, and even then I suspect the original statement was translated by someone on Schwartz`s behalf.

[Batman]

Stride killed by anarchists is just another old Buck's Row butcher myth

Hello John.

"He mentions the man stop and speak to the woman, who was stood in the gateway."

But you omitted the most important part:

"If you don't mind, would you be so kind as to take a few steps backward my dear? My forthcoming assault MUST be such as to bedevil ripperologists a century hence." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Ah, no, its only you and few others finding it confusing. The contemporary accepted Stride as a Ripper victim. The inquest makes that clear after pointing out why the copycat idea is irrelevant and sets it aside concluding the same murderer was responsible as Nichols and Chapman. Which of course means your suspect who was in jail at the time can't have committed any of those murders and places him with a perfect alibi (law enforcement).

Yes its just a few steps back. Where Schwartz saw the assault and where her body was found is a few feet away a few minutes after. Its a no-brainer really.

However if one wants to go from sweets in her hand, to flowers on her clothes indicating some sort of club conspiracy then surely such trivial mysteries mean you can do the same thing for every other murder.

As correctly pointed out Chapman had pills in a wrapper beside her. Are we therefore to conclude some conspiracy of the lodgers at Hanbury St?

This is just the old, slaughterhouse on Buck's Row therefore a butcher killed Nichols hypothesis gone absolutely haywire. Now Anarchists are killing prostitutes!

I suppose the inhabitants of Miller's Court are some of the most depraved mutilators to have existed.

Stride killed by anarchists is just another old Buck's Row butcher myth reformulated. Which mean for something that sucks so bad.......... its not even original!

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

But doesn't this create a further difficulty? White petals were found scattered in the Yard, but not outside the Yard where Stride was thrown to the ground.

Hi John.
Unless they blew inside the yard, Diemschitz did say "it was rather windy".
The yard was swilled down before 5:00 am, but that likely only refers to the location of the blood, not the entire yard.
There was no time stated as to when the petals were noticed, but it was said to be around where the body was found.

[lynn cates]

nonsense

Hello John. Thanks.Yes, but I fail to see the clever part. Also, she would be screaming with a cut throat.

Makes no sense.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

At the risk of causing uproar [ I sometimes enjoy being provocative!] I think the cachous problem needs to be expanded to include the flower problem. In other words, how did something so delicate, and possibly lightly attached, survive Stride being thrown on to the footway? And why were there no petals on the footway, or street, as there were in the yard?

[John G]

Hello John.

"He mentions the man stop and speak to the woman, who was stood in the gateway."

But you omitted the most important part:

"If you don't mind, would you be so kind as to take a few steps backward my dear? My forthcoming assault MUST be such as to bedevil ripperologists a century hence." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, unless I've misunderstood, I believe that Jon Guy's argument is that Schwartz witnessed the actual murder and that Stride was thrown into the Yard. This is clearly a cleverly worked out argument, but I can't accept it. Thus, the Police Report clearly refers to Stride being thrown on to the footway. From memory, I believe when I mentioned this to Jon, he countered by stating that there was no footway on Berner Street. However, in Begg and Bennett, 2014, there is a photograph of Berner Street from 1909, and a footway, or path, is clearly depicted, running along the side of the street and past the Dutfield's Yard gates.

[lynn cates]

Let there be light.

Hello Batman.

"Swanson's statement taken from Schwartz also included that he identified the body."

Ah! So suddenly, he can see again? Too bad about the temporary blindness from the flowers.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sensible

Hello Errata.

"But for example, he could have seen a couple horsing around and she ended up on the ground laughing."

A sensible suggestion. Of course, the location might be off.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dialogue

Hello John.

"He mentions the man stop and speak to the woman, who was stood in the gateway."

But you omitted the most important part:

"If you don't mind, would you be so kind as to take a few steps backward my dear? My forthcoming assault MUST be such as to bedevil ripperologists a century hence." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello CD. Thanks.

"I fail to see how the shout of Lipski is significant in the context of a club conspiracy since Schwartz was not certain that Lipski was what the B.S. man uttered nor was he sure that it was directed at him"

But surely it is enough for one to articulate a slur to be branded a bully and a racist?

But I agree, the story was not well thought out, else this would have been done better and the lads of Leman would never have had their suspicions raised.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ol' Fred

Hello (again) Batman.

"It was only worked out that it was a racial slur after Anderson investigated it. It took a lot of time."

Well, you mean by the upper echelon of investigators. Fred had it figured out in double quick time.

Talk about false analogies . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

understanding what you read

Hello Batman. Thanks.

I was talking about DEFLECTION. The story did not defect from the Jewish community. This should be obvious if you read it.

"Your memory is worse than Andersons . . ."

Your critical reading skills are as poor as Batman's. Oh wait! (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Descriptions vary on what the flower was, my wife knows more about these things than I do, and for October, and a red & white flower, she is inclined to think it was a Dahlia.
White petals were reported found scattered in the yard.



We can only guess, but that is a red & white Dahlia.

Hello Wickerman,

But doesn't this create a further difficulty? White petals were found scattered in the Yard, but not outside the Yard where Stride was thrown to the ground.

[Batman]

But Schwartz doesn't say anything about Stride. That leads me to question his evidence, especially as to whether he paid her any attention whatsoever. And if he didn't, it could easily be case of mistaken identity. In fact, his failure to give any information on the victim, I.e information that could subsequently be verified, makes me generally suspicion of his account.

Swanson's statement taken from Schwartz also included that he identified the body. So any problems about a misidentification are in Swanson's hands. Plus his location is spot on.

he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway

IN the gateway