The Cachous

[John G]

Hi Abby,

Yes, Dr Biggs' opinions are quite enlightening. It seems that there's quite a lot that even modern day forensic pathology cannot determine with any degree of certainty. And arterial spurting is apparently fairly uncommon, so there's no reason that the throat couldn't have been cut whilst Stride was in an upright position.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

Hi JohnG

As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet

Cool. so do I, and I appreciate you have an open mind on it.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

Yes. Absolutely. Schwartz never said anything about exactly how she fell, or even if she used her hands to brace herself.

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Yes. this is entirely possible. I tend to think there is corroboration that he was JtR though, because of the witnesses descriptions, including lawende who all describe a suspect wearing a peaked cap.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

Because he was trying to finagle her into a secluded location, like he had with the previous, and when he finally realized it wasn't going to happen, and he had spent considerable time and money with her, he lost his temper.
I don't think he was aware of the other two witnesses.

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

Because it didn't cause any.

[John G]

Well, at least one couple failed to come forward-the couple noticed by Fanny Mortimer. If it was a domestic killing, rather than JtR, BS man clearly can't be completely ruled out.

[Batman]

Why didn't the couple having this domestic not turn up to falsify Schwartz? The investigators and witnesses surely couldn't have missed them given a domestic inherently suggests their local. What have they got to hide? You even agreed BSman had nothing to hide because there was no struggle as you suggest.

[Jon Guy]

If you literally believe what PC Lamb said, then you would be right. However, also in the inquest testimony is that Morris Eagle deposed that Stride’s feet were about 6 or 7 feet from the gates and Dr. Blackwell stated that they were even 3 yards from the gateway.

Hi Frank

I do literally believe what PC Lamb said, because:

1) He was a policeman
2) He was initially in charge of the crime scene.
3) He closed the gates and was aware of the sweep of the gate.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
A logical fallacy, I see time and again on these boards are when people expect a certain outcome, such as damaged cloths, spilled caschous, body in a certain position,blood not on the front of the clothes etc., and when they don't see what they think should happen come to a rock hard conclusion that something must happened or not happened. That's incorrect.

For example. No blood was found on strides front of clothes. So people draw the hard and steadfast conclusion that she must have had her throat cut while lying immobilized on her back. Actually, the only hard and steadfast conclusion you can come to is that people reported that there was no blood on her front. That's it.

Now, you can say they liklihood of finding blood on her front would be greater if she was killed standing up, and forensics experts would probably say the same.

But, there could be any number of reasons why it was reported there was no blood found on her front, other than she lying on her back when cut. For example, she may have leaning forward when her throat was cut and the spray didn't get on her cloths, she may have been standing upright but the tightened scarf acted like a tourniquet, or there was some blood on her front but not a lot and it was reported that there was none.

Just because something does or does not happen as you expect does not mean you can just throw out all the other possibilities. Especially making such a huge leap (2 leaps actually)by ruling out bs man as strides killer because she was holding caschous when found. She could have taken them out after the first assault, he could have placed then their himself after she was killed, or she held onto them through the attack. Any number of scenarios.

The only rock hard conclusion you can come to in this case is that she was found holding caschous when she was found. Everything else is just speculation. Period.

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

[FrankO]

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

Hi Jon,

If you literally believe what PC Lamb said, then you would be right. However, also in the inquest testimony is that Morris Eagle deposed that Stride’s feet were about 6 or 7 feet from the gates and Dr. Blackwell stated that they were even 3 yards from the gateway.

All the best,
Frank

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps. However, I would then expect to see even more soiling on the clothes. And, of course, that doesn't explain the lack of impact injuries after being thrown on the footpath.

Moreover, in your model why do you think this wasn't just a common domestic dispute?After all, as you pointed out yourself Stride was standing in the gateway, suggesting she was waiting for someone she knew.

Hi JohnG
A logical fallacy, I see time and again on these boards are when people expect a certain outcome, such as damaged cloths, spilled caschous, body in a certain position,blood not on the front of the clothes etc., and when they don't see what they think should happen come to a rock hard conclusion that something must happened or not happened. That's incorrect.

For example. No blood was found on strides front of clothes. So people draw the hard and steadfast conclusion that she must have had her throat cut while lying immobilized on her back. Actually, the only hard and steadfast conclusion you can come to is that people reported that there was no blood on her front. That's it.

Now, you can say they liklihood of finding blood on her front would be greater if she was killed standing up, and forensics experts would probably say the same.

But, there could be any number of reasons why it was reported there was no blood found on her front, other than she lying on her back when cut. For example, she may have leaning forward when her throat was cut and the spray didn't get on her cloths, she may have been standing upright but the tightened scarf acted like a tourniquet, or there was some blood on her front but not a lot and it was reported that there was none.

Just because something does or does not happen as you expect does not mean you can just throw out all the other possibilities. Especially making such a huge leap (2 leaps actually)by ruling out bs man as strides killer because she was holding caschous when found. She could have taken them out after the first assault, he could have placed then their himself after she was killed, or she held onto them through the attack. Any number of scenarios.

The only rock hard conclusion you can come to in this case is that she was found holding caschous when she was found. Everything else is just speculation. Period.

[Batman]

How do you explain why her scarf was so tight and although had a slice didn't have blood on it?

[Batman]

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't.

Since nobody came forward claiming to be part of a domestic dispute, it seems unlikely. Also domestically this would indicate people who live near. The fact they didn't find any such to compromise Schwartz indicates he has a stronger witness testimony.

[John G]

Perhaps. However, I would then expect to see even more soiling on the clothes. And, of course, that doesn't explain the lack of impact injuries after being thrown on the footpath.

Moreover, in your model why do you think this wasn't just a common domestic dispute?After all, as you pointed out yourself Stride was standing in the gateway, suggesting she was waiting for someone she knew.

[Batman]

In your model the mud smearing on the left side was done by her simply lying down so how muddy do you think a yard with ponies and cart would be? Anyone equestrian minded knows the answer. Its complete sh*t, literally.

[John G]

It would still be a hard surface. I accept it had been raining but I doubt that Berner Street had been transformed into a swamp!

[Batman]

Wet muddy paths are slippery? Yes or no?

[John G]

I think some sort of physical damage, to the clothing and to Stride, would have been likely had her body been dragged. And I have think it would have been very likely, as a consequence of being thrown on to a hard surface.