The Cachous

[Abby Normal]

Hello Errata,

Don`t agree. Tied loosely over the er.. bosom there would have been plenty of room. I donīt mean that the knot was particularly loose, but that scarf/neckerchief was hung loosely round the neck.

While I`m on this subject, the translation of "threw her to the ground" could have been wrongly expressed, in the heat of the moment and by two exitable Hungarians. If we can accept that "screamed three times but not loudly" as "cried out three times", I think "threw her to the ground" could just as well have been "forced her to the ground". Not as dramatic, but I think quite likely. Forced her to the ground/pavement, grab and twist the scarf (choking her into unconsciousness, if only briefly) and then cutting the throat. I still think that the blood on the back of her hand could have got there by her coming to and putting her hand to her throat before passing out again.

Probably have said all this before, but there you are.

Best wishes,

C4

Hi c4
Yes I have and thanks for as Lynn so eloquently put it, by the peace of God, someone else says it!

[c.d.]

"I don't know what any of this means for our falling woman, but it does mean that the manner of her impact was in no way set in stone. It is likely that she would put her hands down. But no more than likely."

Agreed. And unfortunately that is the best that we can conclude. But that is just one of the many red flags in the B.S. man as Stride's killer scenario. Although each of those red flags can be explained with an alternative explanation, it is the sheer number of red flags that should give us pause.

c.d.

[c.d.]

If Stride took the cachous out after being thrown to the ground (which would explain why they didn't spill) wouldn't that seem to indicate that her being thrown to the ground was a minor event and not some brutal attack and that she felt no fear at that time?

It would also negate the argument that the B.S. man immediately forced her back into the passage way as Schwartz left the scene since there would have been no time to take them out.

If the B.S. man did not immediately attempt to take her back into the passage way and there was an argument/and or an offer of cachous, this is all time in which Schwartz could have been seeking out the nearest P.C. Not a real smart move on the part of the B.S. man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD. Ah! Someone FINALLY does some empirical experimentation.

I could kiss you! Well, maybe not. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I have to say that I am flattered but it would at least take dinner and a movie.

c.d.

[Errata]

Being Swedish,Elizabeth was possibly wearing a bib scarf.

Rather like a cravat,but worn to the side.

It was described as a silk handkerchief around her neck. I think it was simply knotted around her neck. And those things are not even nearly as big as bandannas, so I think whatever style choice she made, sh had no choice but to knot it pretty close to the neck.

[John G]

Hi DJA,

Thanks for that. I would have thought, therefore, dragging someone with such a small scarf would have been virtually impossible.

[DJA]

Being Swedish,Elizabeth was possibly wearing a bib scarf.

Rather like a cravat,but worn to the side.

[John G]

;

Hello Errata,

Don`t agree. Tied loosely over the er.. bosom there would have been plenty of room. I donīt mean that the knot was particularly loose, but that scarf/neckerchief was hung loosely round the neck.

While I`m on this subject, the translation of "threw her to the ground" could have been wrongly expressed, in the heat of the moment and by two exitable Hungarians. If we can accept that "screamed three times but not loudly" as "cried out three times", I think "threw her to the ground" could just as well have been "forced her to the ground". Not as dramatic, but I think quite likely. Forced her to the ground/pavement, grab and twist the scarf (choking her into unconsciousness, if only briefly) and then cutting the throat. I still think that the blood on the back of her hand could have got there by her coming to and putting her hand to her throat before passing out again.

Probably have said all this before, but there you are.

Best wishes,

C4

There's no evidence Stride was forced to the ground, instead of thrown. And such a scenario doesn't make any sense in the context of being pulled into the street and spun around. If Stride was killed in the street there's no reason to transport her to the Yard.

I think if we are to question the official account then there's no reason to rely on anything Schwartz says. I mean, you could reinterpret his account to suggest what he actually witnessed was a couple practicing some dance moves!

[John G]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

Hi Errata,

Yes, I agree. I think it would have been just about impossible to pull Stride along the ground with a scarf. A silk scarf isn't a rope and pulley system!

[curious4]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

Hello Errata,

Don`t agree. Tied loosely over the er.. bosom there would have been plenty of room. I donīt mean that the knot was particularly loose, but that scarf/neckerchief was hung loosely round the neck.

While I`m on this subject, the translation of "threw her to the ground" could have been wrongly expressed, in the heat of the moment and by two exitable Hungarians. If we can accept that "screamed three times but not loudly" as "cried out three times", I think "threw her to the ground" could just as well have been "forced her to the ground". Not as dramatic, but I think quite likely. Forced her to the ground/pavement, grab and twist the scarf (choking her into unconsciousness, if only briefly) and then cutting the throat. I still think that the blood on the back of her hand could have got there by her coming to and putting her hand to her throat before passing out again.

Probably have said all this before, but there you are.

Best wishes,

C4

[Errata]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank

I do literally believe what PC Lamb said, because:

1) He was a policeman
2) He was initially in charge of the crime scene.
3) He closed the gates and was aware of the sweep of the gate.

Hi Jon,

Only with 3) you make somewhat of a point, although it doesn't mean that Stride's feet needed to have almost touched the gate when it was being closed. A foot away would not be stretching Lamb's remark that Stride's feet extended just to the swing of the gate.

All the best,
Frank

[Errata]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Looking at your post #246 reminds me of the peace of God--it passes understanding. I have no idea where or how you arrive at this hopeless jumble.

However, we DO agree on one thing. You said something about a "no-brainer." Obvious example.

Cheers.
LC

This is literally the best insult I have ever read. Never before this moment have I called in my fiance from another room to read something on this board, and I was laughing so hard I could only just sort of wave at my screen.

Batman, it has nothing to with agreeing or disagreeing with the content.

But that was just poetry. Really I just have to pause and admire it before going back to content.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

I totally agree with you, and what we can see of the angle of the cut also suggests that

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

Hello DJA. Interesting post. But I thought the Jewish soup kitchen was not quite at #6?

Believe there is an old thread on this?

Cheers.
LC

4,5 and 6 Fashion Street were houses.

The soup kitchen was at the rear of all three and probably accessed via number 4.

They back onto 30 Flower and Dean Street.

Stride sometimes resided at 32.