The Cachous

[John G]

;

Hello Errata,

Don`t agree. Tied loosely over the er.. bosom there would have been plenty of room. I donīt mean that the knot was particularly loose, but that scarf/neckerchief was hung loosely round the neck.

While I`m on this subject, the translation of "threw her to the ground" could have been wrongly expressed, in the heat of the moment and by two exitable Hungarians. If we can accept that "screamed three times but not loudly" as "cried out three times", I think "threw her to the ground" could just as well have been "forced her to the ground". Not as dramatic, but I think quite likely. Forced her to the ground/pavement, grab and twist the scarf (choking her into unconsciousness, if only briefly) and then cutting the throat. I still think that the blood on the back of her hand could have got there by her coming to and putting her hand to her throat before passing out again.

Probably have said all this before, but there you are.

Best wishes,

C4

There's no evidence Stride was forced to the ground, instead of thrown. And such a scenario doesn't make any sense in the context of being pulled into the street and spun around. If Stride was killed in the street there's no reason to transport her to the Yard.

I think if we are to question the official account then there's no reason to rely on anything Schwartz says. I mean, you could reinterpret his account to suggest what he actually witnessed was a couple practicing some dance moves!

[John G]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

Hi Errata,

Yes, I agree. I think it would have been just about impossible to pull Stride along the ground with a scarf. A silk scarf isn't a rope and pulley system!

[curious4]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

Hello Errata,

Don`t agree. Tied loosely over the er.. bosom there would have been plenty of room. I donīt mean that the knot was particularly loose, but that scarf/neckerchief was hung loosely round the neck.

While I`m on this subject, the translation of "threw her to the ground" could have been wrongly expressed, in the heat of the moment and by two exitable Hungarians. If we can accept that "screamed three times but not loudly" as "cried out three times", I think "threw her to the ground" could just as well have been "forced her to the ground". Not as dramatic, but I think quite likely. Forced her to the ground/pavement, grab and twist the scarf (choking her into unconsciousness, if only briefly) and then cutting the throat. I still think that the blood on the back of her hand could have got there by her coming to and putting her hand to her throat before passing out again.

Probably have said all this before, but there you are.

Best wishes,

C4

[Errata]

I think we need to talk about the kerchief for a second.

The only way for it to have tightened around her neck would be if someone grabbed it and twisted it, assuming there was room between the scarf and the neck to do that. Kerchiefs are tied like shoelaces. Yank all you want on it, all you are going to tighten is the knot. The circumference of the scarf itself won't change.

But there likely was not a lot of room for a man to get his hand in there. Likely just his fingers. He could manipulate her with it pull he towards him, yank her around, but he can't drag her by it, certainly not while she's still living. His fingers would have slipped out over and over, releasing her.

On the other hand, because the scarf is silk, it might as well be a steel collar around her neck. It was never going to tear, or break, or come untied. As far as methods of control go, it was almost perfect. Had it been looser or bigger it would have been the same as a dog collar.

And while I am sure the as she was being murdered the scarf deprived her of oxygen for short periods, nothing suggests she was strangled with it.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank

I do literally believe what PC Lamb said, because:

1) He was a policeman
2) He was initially in charge of the crime scene.
3) He closed the gates and was aware of the sweep of the gate.

Hi Jon,

Only with 3) you make somewhat of a point, although it doesn't mean that Stride's feet needed to have almost touched the gate when it was being closed. A foot away would not be stretching Lamb's remark that Stride's feet extended just to the swing of the gate.

All the best,
Frank

[Errata]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Looking at your post #246 reminds me of the peace of God--it passes understanding. I have no idea where or how you arrive at this hopeless jumble.

However, we DO agree on one thing. You said something about a "no-brainer." Obvious example.

Cheers.
LC

This is literally the best insult I have ever read. Never before this moment have I called in my fiance from another room to read something on this board, and I was laughing so hard I could only just sort of wave at my screen.

Batman, it has nothing to with agreeing or disagreeing with the content.

But that was just poetry. Really I just have to pause and admire it before going back to content.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

I totally agree with you, and what we can see of the angle of the cut also suggests that

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

Hello DJA. Interesting post. But I thought the Jewish soup kitchen was not quite at #6?

Believe there is an old thread on this?

Cheers.
LC

4,5 and 6 Fashion Street were houses.

The soup kitchen was at the rear of all three and probably accessed via number 4.

They back onto 30 Flower and Dean Street.

Stride sometimes resided at 32.

[John G]

Hi Abby,

Yes, Dr Biggs' opinions are quite enlightening. It seems that there's quite a lot that even modern day forensic pathology cannot determine with any degree of certainty. And arterial spurting is apparently fairly uncommon, so there's no reason that the throat couldn't have been cut whilst Stride was in an upright position.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

Hi JohnG

As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet

Cool. so do I, and I appreciate you have an open mind on it.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

Yes. Absolutely. Schwartz never said anything about exactly how she fell, or even if she used her hands to brace herself.

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Yes. this is entirely possible. I tend to think there is corroboration that he was JtR though, because of the witnesses descriptions, including lawende who all describe a suspect wearing a peaked cap.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

Because he was trying to finagle her into a secluded location, like he had with the previous, and when he finally realized it wasn't going to happen, and he had spent considerable time and money with her, he lost his temper.
I don't think he was aware of the other two witnesses.

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

Because it didn't cause any.

[John G]

Well, at least one couple failed to come forward-the couple noticed by Fanny Mortimer. If it was a domestic killing, rather than JtR, BS man clearly can't be completely ruled out.

[Batman]

Why didn't the couple having this domestic not turn up to falsify Schwartz? The investigators and witnesses surely couldn't have missed them given a domestic inherently suggests their local. What have they got to hide? You even agreed BSman had nothing to hide because there was no struggle as you suggest.

[Jon Guy]

If you literally believe what PC Lamb said, then you would be right. However, also in the inquest testimony is that Morris Eagle deposed that Stride’s feet were about 6 or 7 feet from the gates and Dr. Blackwell stated that they were even 3 yards from the gateway.

Hi Frank

I do literally believe what PC Lamb said, because:

1) He was a policeman
2) He was initially in charge of the crime scene.
3) He closed the gates and was aware of the sweep of the gate.

[John G]

Hi JohnG
A logical fallacy, I see time and again on these boards are when people expect a certain outcome, such as damaged cloths, spilled caschous, body in a certain position,blood not on the front of the clothes etc., and when they don't see what they think should happen come to a rock hard conclusion that something must happened or not happened. That's incorrect.

For example. No blood was found on strides front of clothes. So people draw the hard and steadfast conclusion that she must have had her throat cut while lying immobilized on her back. Actually, the only hard and steadfast conclusion you can come to is that people reported that there was no blood on her front. That's it.

Now, you can say they liklihood of finding blood on her front would be greater if she was killed standing up, and forensics experts would probably say the same.

But, there could be any number of reasons why it was reported there was no blood found on her front, other than she lying on her back when cut. For example, she may have leaning forward when her throat was cut and the spray didn't get on her cloths, she may have been standing upright but the tightened scarf acted like a tourniquet, or there was some blood on her front but not a lot and it was reported that there was none.

Just because something does or does not happen as you expect does not mean you can just throw out all the other possibilities. Especially making such a huge leap (2 leaps actually)by ruling out bs man as strides killer because she was holding caschous when found. She could have taken them out after the first assault, he could have placed then their himself after she was killed, or she held onto them through the attack. Any number of scenarios.

The only rock hard conclusion you can come to in this case is that she was found holding caschous when she was found. Everything else is just speculation. Period.

Hi Abby,

When I mentioned soiling I was referring to Batman's argument about Stride being dragged into the Yard. As regards the lack of blood, having had the opportunity to read Dr Biggs' opinion, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, I am no longer of the opinion that Stride's throat was necessarily cut whilst she was on, or close, to the ground. In fact, I now think it possible that it could have been cut whilst she was in an upright position, regardless as to whether the scarf was used as a tourniquet.

Regarding the cachous, as I noted in an earlier post, I am now wondering what might have happened if Stride fell sideways, after being spun round, rather than forward or backwards. Is it possible that, in such a scenario, she may have instinctively tucked her arm into her body, like a sling, maybe with her hand clenched, so that her shoulder would take the impact?

From the perspective of BS man, if he was the killer I think it likely this was a domestic incident, not JtR. In fact, this would allow for the possibility that he didn't initially intend murder, and may have walked away after seeing off Schwartz. Stride may then have taken out the cachous, thinking he was going, to help her recover from the shock. He then may have changed his mind, quickly returning and committing the murder.

Moreover, as I've also noted, if he was the same man that Marshall saw with Stride then he clearly had a great deal of patience, even charm. And it would probably mean that he was wondering around the locality with Stride for at least an hour, with plenty of opportunity to choose an ideal location to launch an attack, if that was his intent. Why then did he suddenly lose patience and attack Stride in a far from ideal location, I.e on the street in front of two witnesses?

And if Stride was thrown to the ground, why no injuries, bruising or breaking of the skin of any kind?

[FrankO]

The exact details are in the inquest testimony !!

Morris Eagle: "The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide"

PC Lamb: "The feet of the deceased extended just to the swing of the gate"

Therefore, her feet were just over 4 and half feet from the gateway. (or one good push and two strides away from where she was standing)

Hi Jon,

If you literally believe what PC Lamb said, then you would be right. However, also in the inquest testimony is that Morris Eagle deposed that Stride’s feet were about 6 or 7 feet from the gates and Dr. Blackwell stated that they were even 3 yards from the gateway.

All the best,
Frank