Which Schwartz interpretation is acurate ?

[Wickerman]

... Besides - out of interest - do sailors really have a rolling gait when they land, or is that an urban myth?

I think its all in the mind.
After a sea crossing to Sweden back in the 70's my wife and I experienced the feeling of the ground moving under our feet for several hours after we landed.
We were not walking funny, it was just a sense of balance 'thing' in the mind.

BS-man was likely either drunk, or walked with a limp.
The annoying thing for me about this description is the man with "an unnatural glare in his eyes" also walked with an "unusual gait".

See how everything comes together,... as clear as mud!

[lynn cates]

speculation

Hello Jon. Thanks.

IF he gave her the cachous just before killing her, and IF we agree that her assailant was just behind her when she was killed, then he needed to creep around behind her whilst she was busy with the cachous.

Is that a comfortable speculation?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

.... But, inevitably, the posts begin where someone is trying to find a place for "Jack" and the reasoning becomes convoluted.

Perhaps I ask too much?

If we can find no place for 'Jack' then we can rule Stride out altogether as a Ripper victim.
I would quite happily shut 'Jack' out, except for the fact there was something in the order of 10-15 minutes unaccounted for after Schwartz fled the scene.
This is verified by Swanson.

Secondly, Stride had been in the company of a strange character "with weak eyes" that night at the Bricklayers Arms.
A 'strange character' with an "unnatural glare in his eyes" was seen outside the Britannia the night Mary Kelly was murdered.

I can't in all truth rule Stride out as a Ripper victim unless these issues are resolved somehow.

[Sam Flynn]

what if the allegedly drunken gait witnessed by Schwartz happened to be the typically rolling gait of a sailor just landed? (not an uncommon sight perhaps in this particular area of London)

A far more common sight would be that of a common-or-garden geezer who just happened to be drunk. Besides - out of interest - do sailors really have a rolling gait when they land, or is that an urban myth?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi DM

But despite being a defender of orthodoxy and the traditional C5, I'll defend the idea that Schwartz and Stride-as-Ripper-victim are incompatible

I generally find your postings both logical and thoughtful but I'm afraid I can't quite go all the way with you on this one...

Everyone (including serial killers) has their off-days...in fact it's possible that for JtR, each killing occured on an off-day, but that's really a subject for another thread.

If our Jack was a bit "impaired", (through alcohol or otherwise), prior to killing Liz, you also have to remember that the second victim that night was also far more than somewhat impaired - so JTR didn't have to be particularly cunning...

But also - what if the allegedly drunken gait witnessed by Schwartz happened actually to be the typically rolling gait of a sailor just landed? (not an uncommon sight perhaps in this particular area of London at that time)...and that peaked hat described by other witnesses? Begins to sound more interesting maybe?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."

Could this be emended to:

"Stride is assaulted, she falls, witnessed by Schwartz walking quickly past, and when she gains her composure, AND TAKES OUT THE CACHOUS, the killer pulls her into the shadows and kills her."?

Cheers.
LC

Indeed, that is the point where I believe she handled the cachous. However, whether she took them out of her own pocket or, this 3rd man handed them to her as a gesture of compassion (and taking her off guard?), we can not know.
Whatever happened next was swift to be sure.

[Sam Flynn]

But I dont think anything else can be determined from the mysterious sweets

Eureka! The word was "Jujubes" all along!

[lynn cates]

exercise

Hello CD. Thanks.

Considering is all well and good. In the end, however, reason must triumph.

Exercise? Ah, just did my yard and I ache. Be off with you, then, and enjoy!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

hold on

Hello Jeff. Yet my old women kept them when I went for her neck. It worked well and simply.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Whom will pay?

Hello Gareth. Thanks.

Ah! But the Scots are the men who won't be paying for nothing. (We let the Welsh stand treat--heh-heh.)

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

We are talking about the cachous relative to Liz being thrown down by the B.S. man not her holding them as she was killed. The key question is WHEN did she take them out.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Schwartz didn't say that he saw Liz being killed where she was thrown down and he would have no way of knowing what took place after he fled.

The desire to kill might have have made him take a chance initially but that does not mean that paranoia couldn't have crept in at some point.

The police merely considered the idea of another killer they didn't say that that was actually the case. I think it is a reasonable assumption that they had some basis for considering it.

I am trying to cut down on my modus tollens so I will pass on that.

You are wearing me out and it is a beautiful, sunny day here so I have to get out and get some exercise.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Excellent points, CD, and one in particular triggered some new thoughts. Well, new to me:
... and as (or before) she went to eat one, another man came up to her and cut her throat? Within minutes of Schwartz's sighting, and at practically the same spot?

(I think you may well be right about when she took out the cachous, by the way, and your reasons for coming to that conclusion are sound.)

THe problem both you and CD have Sam, is however you figure out the various problems the 'Cachous' problem remains a problem.

Its simply non explainable from any point of view or angle.

It seems logical to suggest that continuing to hold onto the 'cachous' was some sort of reflex action. This suggests from what ever angle the murder happened it was simply very very fast

But I dont think anything else can be determined from the mysterious sweets

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

For the same reason they entertained the suspect "Druitt-Kosminski-Tumblety-Klosowski." (Just love English hyphenated cognomens.)

The Juwes-Jewes-James-IWMES are the hyphenated cognomens that will not be blamed for nothing.

[lynn cates]

bifurcation

Hello CD. Thanks.

So he was sort of uncontrollably aroused but also sort of not?

Very well.

Cheers.
LC